RME: Latency lowest with FW, USB, or ?

[nowtime]

Looking to buy a 400. My USB on my Macbook Pro is already overwhelmed. But the Fireface UC advertises super-low latency, and the Fireface400 doesn't mention it. I want to make sure I am not missing out on the lowest. Is there much of a difference? What about using the PCI ( not really sure if that is even an option with the Fireface).

[glitchrock-buddha]

The UC apparently has slightly lower latency possible. However the firewire version still has very low (Lower than I'd ever need to go so as not to cripple my cpu).

[Tarekith]

Agreed, I usually leave my FF400 at 256 samples, but it can do 128 without breaking a sweat, even lower if I want the CPU hit. I really don't understand the need to go lower than that for most people to be honest.

[leedsquietman]

The Fireface UC also has new Totalmix routing control software which is supposed to be the bomb, which the firewire interfaces don't have (the USB 2.0 Babyface is also supposed to have this new routing software - the FF400/800 have the earlier Totalmix software but RME has no plans to upgrade this).

I pretty much agree with Tarekith, the only exception I would add is if you're tracking drums (real or v-drums) a latency sub 100 samples is desirable to help drummers keep more accurate timing. You can edit and warp to a degree after the fact, but it should help reduce the amount of editing and warping required.

[Tarekith]

What's different in the new Totalmix, do you know? Great software, though admittedly a little hard to get your head around at times.

[slirak]

I pretty much agree with Tarekith, the only exception I would add is if you're tracking drums (real or v-drums) a latency sub 100 samples is desirable to help drummers keep more accurate timing. You can edit and warp to a degree after the fact, but it should help reduce the amount of editing and warping required.

V-drums, yes, even if you do get used to playing with high latency, it's much nicer with low latency. And don't forget that the MIDI interface will add a bit of latency too, sometimes quite a bit.

But I also feel that tracking guitar through a soft amp needs very low latency and so does vocals, at least if you like me perform better with a bit of reverb and maybe some compression (and hence don't like Direct Monitoring). Even though I use closed cans, I can still hear my vocals through them and I really need to get quite a bit below 10 ms (full roundtrip) not to hear something akin to ADT.

And that brings me to why I'm actually writing this post.

I don't know how many audio interfaces I've owned over the years, at least a dozen. And I don't think two of them ever had the same roundtrip latency using the same buffer size. It seems there's always some extra overhead and that apparently varies quite a lot between different models.

At 64 samples, I get 7.23 ms roundtrip with my Apogee One - and using Live's CPU Usage Simulator at its max, I just hear the occasional soft click at that size. I had to use 196 samples with my previous interface to achieve the same stability - and that was a FW interface (a Saffire LE). Then again, 196 samples (=64 x 3) with the Saffire didn't amount to 21.69 ms (7.23 x 3). I don't remember how much exactly, but more like 15 ms or so.

So, what kind of latency are we talking about here, in terms of ms? At a point where you can just run Live's CPU Usage Simulator at its max without any clicks? With the Babyface or the FF400.

I really like my Apogee, but it does fall short when it comes to connectivity. So I've been checking them RME goodies out.

Sorry to hijack the thread!

[leedsquietman]

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-co ... ix-fx.html

It's a subjective thing, but tracking vocals is usually OK up to 256 samples latency, and 256 samples latency is the same as standing 11 feet away from a guitar amp, something most guitarists do when playing live. I get what you mean about direct monitoring, I track my own vocals and bass that way usually, it's not optimal, dry vocals don't sound great, or I track them at 128 to 256 sample latency through software.

True about latency varying from interface to interface too, this is often caused by poor or underdeveloped drivers (and is sometimes rectified on an ongoing basis by the vendor) or converters and other internal workings.

On a PC, I have never experienced latency as low as with RME's interfaces. Echo Audio's Indigo IO/DJ was a close second and their audiofire (with a TI firewire chipset on our computer) come close. Presonus, Native Instruments are probably top of the next division, and Tascam, Focusrite and MOTU (on PC, not on Mac where they run better) are in the next division. This is in terms of latency and driver quality. Focusrite make excellent HARDWARE, the preamps are fantastic, but they cannot get their drivers performing in the same ballpark as RME and Tascam even more so, the latency can still be low, but forget tracking on your laptop at 64 samples etc. ASIO4ALL almost always gives better performance on those interfaces, but then you lose any internal DSP FX (if there are any).

[naph]

did the test right now, macbook pro i7 2,66ghz, fireface 400, latest drivers and firmware

i can get below 80 samples with the cpu usage simulator maxed out (80%) .. starts to dropout occasionally when going below 70, and more consistently (not usable below 60)

in real life, working on full projects (20+ tracks and fx, cpu could hit 90% and more) this latency will very likely cause me some dropouts, so i prefer to keep it around 256 samples.

let's say that if you want to track a drummer and you don't have other cpu-intensive tasks, you could actually go under 100samples.. but i wouldn't say this could be your daily configuration for working on complex projects.

[naph]

side note.. out of curiosity i did the same test with a NI audio8 that comes with traktor, and i could get around 60 samples without hearing a single dropout. going below 50 causes only occasional dropouts.
i could run a full project with a latency around 90samples..

surprise.. these interfaces shouldn't even be in the same league, but the cheapest one is definitely outperforming here.

i'm suspecting this is related to the the new fw chipset on macbooks, rather than being actually related to the soundcard or drivers. and i see why more and more companies are releasing pro-level interfaces on USB.

i've got a TI chipset on an older notebook, and remember never having latency issues with the rme.

[slirak]

side note.. out of curiosity i did the same test with a NI audio8 that comes with traktor, and i could get around 60 samples without hearing a single dropout. going below 50 causes only occasional dropouts.
i could run a full project with a latency around 90samples..

surprise.. these interfaces shouldn't even be in the same league, but the cheapest one is definitely outperforming here.

i'm suspecting this is related to the the new fw chipset on macbooks, rather than being actually related to the soundcard or drivers. and i see why more and more companies are releasing pro-level interfaces on USB.

i've got a TI chipset on an older notebook, and remember never having latency issues with the rme.

And the latency in ms please?

[slirak]

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-co ... ix-fx.html

It's a subjective thing, but tracking vocals is usually OK up to 256 samples latency, and 256 samples latency is the same as standing 11 feet away from a guitar amp, something most guitarists do when playing live.

OK, so you're saying that you get a latency of about 10 ms with 256 samples and a FF400? Is that the total roundtrip latency, as reported by Live?

[naph]

side note.. out of curiosity i did the same test with a NI audio8 that comes with traktor, and i could get around 60 samples without hearing a single dropout. going below 50 causes only occasional dropouts.
i could run a full project with a latency around 90samples..

surprise.. these interfaces shouldn't even be in the same league, but the cheapest one is definitely outperforming here.

i'm suspecting this is related to the the new fw chipset on macbooks, rather than being actually related to the soundcard or drivers. and i see why more and more companies are releasing pro-level interfaces on USB.

i've got a TI chipset on an older notebook, and remember never having latency issues with the rme.

And the latency in ms please?

as reported by live,
60smp -> 2,83ms
90smp -> 3,51ms

[slirak]

side note.. out of curiosity i did the same test with a NI audio8 that comes with traktor, and i could get around 60 samples without hearing a single dropout. going below 50 causes only occasional dropouts.
i could run a full project with a latency around 90samples..

surprise.. these interfaces shouldn't even be in the same league, but the cheapest one is definitely outperforming here.

i'm suspecting this is related to the the new fw chipset on macbooks, rather than being actually related to the soundcard or drivers. and i see why more and more companies are releasing pro-level interfaces on USB.

i've got a TI chipset on an older notebook, and remember never having latency issues with the rme.

And the latency in ms please?

as reported by live,
60smp -> 2,83ms
90smp -> 3,51ms

But surely that can't be the total (roundtrip) latency? That would be pretty awesome for a cheap interface!

When I said I got 7.23 ms at 64 samples with the Apogee, that breaks down to:
Input latency: 4.01 ms
Output latency: 3.22 ms
Total latency: 7.23 ms

[leedsquietman]

256 samples varies between about 11ms to 15ms total round trip on the interfaces I've used on my home system. On average it's somewhere in the 12-13ms range.

some interfaces do not accurately describe their total round trip, they don't include A/D converter latency or add buffers for smoother playback and don't declare them.

Anything sub 20ms total round trip is usually fine and not noticeable for most applications, but beyond this, you will start to notice the effect latency has on your recordings.

[Hidden Driveways]

I have the Fireface UC. Unfortunately, I don't have time to do any testing to see how low of a latency I can get with my new MacBook Pro. There were many reasons why I spent the extra money on the UC, and latency was definitely one of them. For me making music must be latency free. I need my software instruments to behave with the immediacy of acoustic instruments. You bang the string and the string makes noise.

I'm really sensitive to latency, and I find that I go into Preferences a lot to adjust it. I like to bang it up high when mixing, and drop it down really low when tracking. That's just the way I work with Live. I've never been the type to set it at 256 and forget about it. I haven't taken on any really big projects since I bought my UC, but for the sketching I've done with it I've been happy with its performance. Plus, its initials are FFUC! My advice to everyone is to go FFUC yourselves by spending $1300 on a USB interface.

What about using the PCI ( not really sure if that is even an option with the Fireface).

There are no Fireface PCI interfaces from RME. You could get a Multiface II with a card to a laptop, but really I would strongly advise against this. The card systems simply don't get as much attention from manufacturers, and computer manufactures increasingly seem to move away from this port. It's sad, but true. Invest your money in current technology.