Anyone seriously use arrangement?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
SubFunk
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Re: Anyone seriously use arrangement?

Post by SubFunk » Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:05 am

^^^ i think the point is that if you load the exact same project with the exact same plugs, etc. into live, no matter if under windows or OSX or Cubase, Logic, PT, DP, etc. you will do notice without a doubt that live is by far the most UN-EFFICIENT one, i know, i know, realtime blah blah...

but the point is that it's a fact live is more CPU hungry then all the others, that it has a few advantages as well, is clear.

and for plain mixdowns, where realtime is not that important it can be a bummer, because it is usually when heavy plugin use takes place.
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Poster
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Re: Anyone seriously use arrangement?

Post by Poster » Sat Aug 07, 2010 11:53 am

3phase wrote:there would be group clips !
hear hear..
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... 48&start=0

dna598
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Re: Anyone seriously use arrangement?

Post by dna598 » Sat Aug 07, 2010 11:56 am

Cool Character wrote:
A lot of the extra stuff they added don't integrate with the paradigm so well, and some even break it.

Just ignore / don't use those parts, you might say. It's not much of a solution for someone who bought Ableton to use MIDI within Ableton's paradigm, though. And even if you could afford to avoid them, sometimes the wonky parts entirely replace another fairly integrated one. Anyway I can totally see what 3phase is saying about Ableton going from an instrument to a disjointed mess. Not that I agree to the same degree he seems to mean it.
you ll have to elaborate please. What parts? You have not provided any examples.
Last edited by dna598 on Sat Aug 07, 2010 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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barbarism
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Re: Anyone seriously use arrangement?

Post by barbarism » Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:54 pm

Cubase and logic are so bloated, CPU hogs, more features then I need. No built in sampler, Gimmick Instruments like Groove Agent One, EXS24 is so ugly and tedious to use, stupid windows open all the time and get in the way etc etc. No thanks. Those days are over...


I'm with you there. Those instruments in Logic are so dated. I was shocked to see tutorials from 3 versions ago showing identical instruments. ESX24 is about as ugly as it gets, same with the others really. I think Live is by far the best, having native integrated UI + external plug-ins get native UI controllers.

And when do we get now the possibiliy to work and edit between mutiple arrange versions?
This is a user wish as old as the arranger itself..
When? after 8 years.. i think...


Thanks for reminding me on this one. Multiple arrange versions in the same file with some sort of quick switching.


Session clips have to become 'mini arrangers' (Meta Clips) and the Arranger needs non linear arranging features..

Totally agree. Session clips become so limited after a while. You end up having to bounce a more complex session combination out to disk, then import it give it its own slot.


You guys are all saying that Ableton has never wanted this to be a DAW. How is it not a DAW at this point? I think they need to face the fact that this isn't version 3.0 anymore and it needs to grow up. Arrangement needs to mature beyond the 3.0 days, basically where it is today in 8. When was the last time that anything significant happened with arrangement? hmm... I can't even remember. I guess crossfades and groups but, come on.

And yeah, the priorities seem odd to me. While I see Max as a great little toy and some cool projects have come out of it, I would have rather seen the basics rock solid before Max integration. How many times do you use Max vs basic arrangement? I've loaded Max, I play around with it but, it's a toy used on 10% of projects and playing around. Arrange and basic DAW features are used on 100% of projects, even playing around. And I disagree that it needs to be as bloated and complex as say Logic, it doesn't, it just needs to take care of the 80% rule.

friend_kami
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Re: Anyone seriously use arrangement?

Post by friend_kami » Sat Aug 07, 2010 1:24 pm

i make heavy use of arrangement, doing mainly idm, breakcore and stuff like that i can easily sit for several hours for just 5-6 seconds of music microediting it until its juuuust right. i love arrangement view but the lack of proper automation editing, and stuff like inserting exact automation values makes it tedious to work with in the long run. but i make do, seeing that the only other viable option would be to either switch daw, and/or work via rewire.

when i do my noise/breakcore stuffs i average on some 40-60ish tracks, depends a bit. the idm stuffs are usually averaging at some 60+.
i also do postrock/electronica stuffs with acoustic instruments and hwatnots and that usually average on somewhere between 30 and 40 tracks. arrangement view takes time to get used to properly and to incorporate it into your workflow properly, mainly because you have to switch back and forth between session and arrangement all the time, and the idea of not having the arrangement as a completely separate ui is sortof annoying at times (especially when you have to edit midi -.-, hello? fullscreen midi editing? cmon man..) but hey, arrangement with the sessionview in conjunction with audio/instrument racks and drumracks is just..sex.

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Re: Anyone seriously use arrangement?

Post by Simbosan » Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:23 pm

For me session for creating/composing and arranging (yeah arranging in session go figure). Mixing / Mastering (such as it is) in Arrangement.

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jimmynitcher
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Re: Anyone seriously use arrangement?

Post by jimmynitcher » Sat Aug 07, 2010 3:23 pm

hello? fullscreen midi editing? cmon man..
You can do full screen midi editing in arrange view if you drag the divider to the top, or am I missing the point ?

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Re: Anyone seriously use arrangement?

Post by friend_kami » Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:10 pm

jimmynitcher wrote:
hello? fullscreen midi editing? cmon man..
You can do full screen midi editing in arrange view if you drag the divider to the top, or am I missing the point ?
ah yes, well, that means that you have to drag the freaking thing, and for us dual monitor users it means that we have a full screen midi editing screen and an arrangement screen hidden beneath it when we could just easily place that on the other screen. annoying.

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Re: Anyone seriously use arrangement?

Post by SubFunk » Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:19 pm

friend_kami wrote:
jimmynitcher wrote:
hello? fullscreen midi editing? cmon man..
You can do full screen midi editing in arrange view if you drag the divider to the top, or am I missing the point ?
ah yes, well, that means that you have to drag the freaking thing, and for us dual monitor users it means that we have a full screen midi editing screen and an arrangement screen hidden beneath it when we could just easily place that on the other screen. annoying.
that permanent resizing issue is as annoying as pop up windows, i am not sure which is worse, though...

the whole one windows concept is great, but only makes real sense if they would finally make those different views (the rezising, browser, etc.) mappable to SINGLE buttons or keys. a la logic's screenshots.
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delfs
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Re: Anyone seriously use arrangement?

Post by delfs » Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:39 pm

+1 for the positibility of referencing session clips from arrangement, better/more shortcuts, take comping as well as better multitrack editing + recording!

done right i can't see why that would interfere with the basic ideas of live. and that would suit _my_ needs perfectly :)

jimmynitcher
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Re: Anyone seriously use arrangement?

Post by jimmynitcher » Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:03 pm

You only need to drag it once, from then on its just a double-click on any clip to get full screen and getting back to Arrange view is shift/Tab.

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Re: Anyone seriously use arrangement?

Post by SubFunk » Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:41 pm

jimmynitcher wrote:You only need to drag it once, from then on its just a double-click on any clip to get full screen and getting back to Arrange view is shift/Tab.
depending on what you need... editing midi and doing other tasks in between, you need to permanently mouse around and drag windows back and forth.

what you mean works only if you alternate between 2 same tasks and only for that specific pair.
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Re: Anyone seriously use arrangement?

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:32 pm

clank72 wrote: Never see it. Love my Live!
Meaningless response. You called Logic etc. bloated CPU hogs. Live is the CPU hog bar none, if you had spent any time in any other software, you would know this.
Many many reasons to love Live, it's CPU efficiency is not one of them.

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Re: Anyone seriously use arrangement?

Post by SubFunk » Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:43 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
clank72 wrote: Never see it. Love my Live!
Meaningless response. You called Logic etc. bloated CPU hogs. Live is the CPU hog bar none, if you had spent any time in any other software, you would know this.
Many many reasons to love Live, it's CPU efficiency is not one of them.
+1

logic CPU hog, wow! man you really don't know what you are talking about, that you don't like it or that you think it's bloated with functions, etc. is fair enough (a matter of taste), but it is by far the most CPU efficient DAW there is. and ableton is the most inefficient, that doesn't mean it is not a great piece of software, but it is as machinesworking said: "Many many reasons to love Live, it's CPU efficiency is not one of them."
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Re: Anyone seriously use arrangement?

Post by remute99 » Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:26 pm

SubFunk wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:
clank72 wrote: Never see it. Love my Live!
Meaningless response. You called Logic etc. bloated CPU hogs. Live is the CPU hog bar none, if you had spent any time in any other software, you would know this.
Many many reasons to love Live, it's CPU efficiency is not one of them.
+1

logic CPU hog, wow! man you really don't know what you are talking about, that you don't like it or that you think it's bloated with functions, etc. is fair enough (a matter of taste), but it is by far the most CPU efficient DAW there is. and ableton is the most inefficient, that doesn't mean it is not a great piece of software, but it is as machinesworking said: "Many many reasons to love Live, it's CPU efficiency is not one of them."

+1, I've got Cubase 5, Logic 8, PT8 and Live and Live is faaaaar and away the biggest RAM hog and least efficient of the lot. I was gobsmacked when I realised just how many more virtual synths I could run in Logic compared to Live.
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