bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
3phase
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by 3phase » Fri May 13, 2011 10:44 pm

Poster wrote: while fully aware Live doesn't provide the quality you're after, you kept on using it, and being a good fanboi, buying an upgrade year after year..
yeah.. i was in the hope that the company had good intentions and wouldnt be in it just for the money,, and any upgrade brought a little step forward.. and like a drug addict you was happy about any little progress... and kept on working with live.. also in respect of liveshows.. to have it easier to compile a live show when your main daw is the stage tool...

what a joke.. there is no daw in the world that makes it so difficult to browse and combine older projekts.. it dont even loads it older files without a lot of extra work.. funny here.. it loads L1 files better than L6 files...

the L8 collaps opened my eyes.. such a strange fashion of allways everything only half done... sorry..

that must be a tactic to do as many upgrades as possible.. otherwise it wouldnt look so good for the developers...
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nathannn
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by nathannn » Fri May 13, 2011 10:58 pm

hey 3phase..
i just found out you had a few underground hits in the 90's.
why dont you tour anymore? or do you.
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3phase
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by 3phase » Fri May 13, 2011 11:11 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
3phase wrote:everybody that encounters some reduced soundquality on certain projekts gets treated here like a lunatic...
why don't you just deal with those cases as they arise and stop being such a screaming child?

many threads where someone is complaining about sound quality are people learning the tool for the first time. I've had people send me their projects and have done basic tweaks to them. the differences can be amazing. maybe you just need help.



all that aside, pick on Ableton and not the users and I don't really care. Live could totally be better, give 'em hell.

you are the one that is screaming here like a child one has stolen its toy... I just stated that the rumour is based on reality not haluzintions as most of you guys claim.

But reality is that the list of producers that prefer other daws for tracking, mixdown and mastering is endless...
actually rising as it looks.. i know personally 3 cases of younger producers that grew up with live that have switched.
As the typical starters tool life has many users that just dont know any other daw yet.. especially people that mainly work in arrangment mode get easily converted once they try.. soundquality is defently part of that converting quality the trys with other daw´s have. And therfore it would be in abletons very own interest to be really at par with the others in that regard.
However difficult because they have made all the wrong audio compromising choices long ago.. and its quite difficould to change things at the root again.. you might loose all backward compatibility when you change the gain structure for example.
I guess they hope that faster computers and 64 bit processing will render the audible drawbacks of theire choices so little that they really dont matter anymore.. When you work with 32 bit recording and 88,1/96 k recording all the time you actually get a similar quality than with other daws on 44,1/24 bit... just.. so much data just to work around abletons mixbus degenerations?
no other option..

but that shoudl be actually the official statement in the manual..

live is a stage related software optimized for realtime tasks, therfore for maximummstudio production quality doublerate is mandatory as well as external tools to provide dithering and high quality offline samplerate conversion.


not this cryptic "when used right it sounds as good as any other daw" our null tests have shown null bla bla
Last edited by 3phase on Fri May 13, 2011 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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3phase
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by 3phase » Fri May 13, 2011 11:12 pm

nathannn wrote:hey 3phase..
i just found out you had a few underground hits in the 90's.
why dont you tour anymore? or do you.

booking agencys want demos ..i say demo my ass
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docprosper
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by docprosper » Sat May 14, 2011 1:48 am

I will not demo your ass sir.
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Tone Deft
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by Tone Deft » Sat May 14, 2011 1:53 am

3phase wrote:booking agencys want demos ..i say demo my ass
we should be able to get you booked into one of the many clubs on upper Market. not that the locals aren't without their standards but a Pro like you should be able to perform.
In my life
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At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
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Sepp Ultura
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by Sepp Ultura » Sat May 14, 2011 7:33 am

I don't relly get what you guys are whining about. I've used Logic for my first few productions. I've now switched over to Live completely. And I'm talking about recording/mixing of rock/metal. I personally feel a much more lively sound than in Logic. But this may also be due to me being more able to tweak my sounds correctly.

I also dont't see the complaints about the claustrophobic workflow people seem to experience. I felt that way in Logic.

Yes..Live needs more CPU than any other daw, but I blame the slow performance on my old normal black macbook with two GB of RAM, not on ableton.

I feel that if Live is slow, it's the hardware it's running on. If it sounds crappy its not Live but the one using it.
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3phase
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by 3phase » Sat May 14, 2011 9:51 am

and when it crashes its your karma...


book of ableton, psalm L6.66
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Palmer Eldritch
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by Palmer Eldritch » Sat May 14, 2011 11:38 am

I can play a 16bit 44.1k uncompressed audiotrack in live and at the same time in the quicktime player. After finding the right track delay they cancel out completely. There is nothing, nichts, nada to hear and to meter !!! (Live clip warped, beats modus, routed to master).

And, btw. I also do not hear the slightest difference between live and quicktime player.


cheers, palmer
Live 8_3_4 + 4b7_32+64 -Suite- Max4Live 5_1_9 _ core2DuoMacBook 2*2,16 Ghz + external FW HD _ OSX 10.6.8 _ 3G RAM _ M.H. MIO 2882 + 5.4d208 Driver _ Faderfox LV1 _ Akai MPK25 _ Logitec wheel mouse _______ PeacE will be the SOLution of LIVE

3phase
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by 3phase » Sat May 14, 2011 1:19 pm

Palmer Eldritch wrote:I can play a 16bit 44.1k uncompressed audiotrack in live and at the same time in the quicktime player. After finding the right track delay they cancel out completely. There is nothing, nichts, nada to hear and to meter !!! (Live clip warped, beats modus, routed to master).

And, btw. I also do not hear the slightest difference between live and quicktime player.


cheers, palmer
so no brown henke dither wright now on your computer,.. good for you... and are you experiancing crashes?
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mr.ergonomics
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by mr.ergonomics » Sat May 14, 2011 2:04 pm

3phase wrote:
Palmer Eldritch wrote:I can play a 16bit 44.1k uncompressed audiotrack in live and at the same time in the quicktime player. After finding the right track delay they cancel out completely. There is nothing, nichts, nada to hear and to meter !!! (Live clip warped, beats modus, routed to master).

And, btw. I also do not hear the slightest difference between live and quicktime player.


cheers, palmer
so no brown henke dither wright now on your computer,.. good for you... and are you experiancing crashes?
haven't done all your scenarios yet... but I have the same as Eldritch. no difference. that said I can hear it when I switch to complex and do a A/B test, but not with repitch or beat at the same bpm. but you also have the same project setting (44khz) as the audiofile? I really don't think thats the point, but maybe it's wrong by accident....
sounds even worse mixed in live than the youtube version of the release..
btw. I like your posted track. but can't comment on the sound because of the youtube quality. but I really can't imagine that the brown dither is near the youtube degeneration! if so there really must be something wrong with your setup.

Angstrom
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by Angstrom » Sat May 14, 2011 2:48 pm

I never understood what 3phase's problem with live's "gain structure" is exactly. is it because it's floating point? If he responds to questions it's usually only with insults and a lengthy tirade.

Just a note that most DAWs use a floating point internal calculation, Logic also has headroom above 0db on tracks during mixing, with clipping only occuring at the output stage, exactly the same . The only DAW exception which comes to mind being ProtoolsHD, which I think is fixedpoint internal calculation.
As far as I can tell, his complaint is that a track running internally with available unclipped headroom above 0 db may overload a 3rd party plugin which is not written to expect it. To say that Live's floating point methodology favours "beginners" by not applying a fictional clipping (which no other app does either).
I'd imagine that proffesionals are more likely to understand floating point and the benefits of flexible headroom and manage levels well, meanwhile beginners are more likely to misunderstand it and fumble it. So the flexibility offered by modern DAWs actually favours people who know what they are doing.
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henke
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by henke » Sat May 14, 2011 3:46 pm

btw. "brown henke dither " is a joke i once made concerning dithering algorithms. but understanding jokes is a highly complex matter, i assume....

mr.ergonomics
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by mr.ergonomics » Sat May 14, 2011 3:57 pm

henke wrote:btw. "brown henke dither " is a joke i once made concerning dithering algorithms. but understanding jokes is a highly complex matter, i assume....
yep, of course this word is a joke and I think all people know it here ;-). but I guess it has become a winged word for a invisible sound degeneration no one is able to show here so far.

H20nly
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by H20nly » Sat May 14, 2011 5:07 pm

henke wrote: understanding jokes is a highly complex matter, i assume....
yes, but not nearly as complex as attempting to figure out why someone would make an almost annual event of buying software they hate for 9 years when other options are both available and in said fanboi's possession.
LoopStationZebra wrote:it's like a hipster commie pinko manifesto. Rambling. Angry. Nearly divorced from all reality; yet strangely compelling with a ring of truth.

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