bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
3phase
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by 3phase » Wed May 11, 2011 5:01 pm

sound like your reffernce file? is that theese beginers trick todo mixes? ok... as long it sounds as good as your refference file there cant be any unknown problems. and a behlinger is a behlinger.. one shouldnt expect too much anyway..
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3dot...
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by 3dot... » Wed May 11, 2011 5:34 pm

Image
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H20nly
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by H20nly » Wed May 11, 2011 6:23 pm

yeah don't expect too much. expect nothing more than what it offers.

mr.ergonomics
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by mr.ergonomics » Wed May 11, 2011 6:47 pm

Greeg wrote:If you don't like the sound then switch to another DAW. How hard is it ?

I don't care about sound quality. I use reference files and as long my productions sound as well as reference file I'm satisfied. People are listening music on youTube, iphones and all other crap - do you seriously believe that such hyphotetical sound quality difference matters ? For me, Live as "creativity booster" is much more important aspect than mythical sound quality. It's not 80' anymore. It's not "make the cleanest sound possible" fest anymore...

It's boring to read the same person in every topic complaining about sound quality. Do yourself a favour and switch DAW or maybe create your own, perfect DAW. Or switch the boring, bad sounding grey GUI :D
I get your point and yes of course, the music is way more important. it's good and very imortant(!) to keep in mind that it will never hinder you to make good music. GAS is a bad thing. but I don't agree about the other part, it's sad that all people listen to youtube. it the reality yes, but as a kind of artist i am an idealist when it comes to things which are important to me. to me sound quality matters to a certain degree and that's all what is important to me.

that's also why I have sympathy for 3phase, I may not agree with him but I get his attitude.

macmurphy
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by macmurphy » Wed May 11, 2011 7:02 pm

the point... what's the fucking point...? i can't go on any more... dear god let it end :cry:

tw1nstates
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by tw1nstates » Wed May 11, 2011 9:11 pm

Interesting someone quoting (way back) the guy that mixes David Guestta and Rhianna and a few others.

His mixes sound awful.

Way too hyped and crunchy in the top end.

The difference when listening to a bunch of that stuff back to back then something older is remarkable.

And just because someone has mixed a bunch of records doesn't make them authoritative about sound quality.

Especially when his records, albeit commercially successful sounds like they were made in Ableton :)
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fx23
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by fx23 » Thu May 12, 2011 12:45 am

just to mention a phase cancelation test with two files at 0db proves nothing about quality. im fed up with those tests.
that's just two binary files with no process at all so that's totally normal they cancel.

when you make a complete mix, you don't just put 1 file at 0db, there are many process: simple levels automation, many summing, latency compensation, bith depth reducing ect
all those operations are real process, and have an impact on quality. a fair test would compare a totall 8 track mix, with various VSTs, and various automations/modulations curves and various sound paths made in live and reproduced 1:1 in other daw.
any other test is irrelevant.

Tone Deft
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by Tone Deft » Thu May 12, 2011 12:47 am

chill out man, have a Snickers.

OK, now that the forum expert has dictated as such, there shall be no such tests ever performed again.

<insert overused emoticon>


to put this BEAT TO F-ING DEATH crap in context... the forumites have generally concluded that each DAW is used differently to achieve a good sounding result. to use the annoying car analogy, we can all race on the same track on the same day at the same time and get the same fast awesome time. one guy might use a car with a 6 speed transmission, one might use a lighter car, one might use a car with an automatic transmission, etc. one might corner faster while another is faster in a straight line. so what? go race, get a fast time. so you don't like left hand drive, some people do, piss off.

all different tools to achieve the same goal. so how do you compare? if it sounds good, so be it. all this is well beyond the mixing abilities of most users. I LOL at some of the mouth breathers that blame Live for its sound quality that turn around and ask STUPID questions on DAW use or audio theory. (there's nothing wrong in asking a dumb question.)

I also have faith that a GREAT producer could produce better sounding tracks with crippled software.

anyone touting that one DAW sounds better than another sends up a big red flag as a complete audio retard. some DAWs have better features, some are better to look at, we all have our favorite(s) but there is no answer for which DAW rules them all.
Last edited by Tone Deft on Thu May 12, 2011 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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fx23
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by fx23 » Thu May 12, 2011 12:56 am

im cool, i don't see what you talk me about.
anybody can keep on comparing two files at 0db if they are happy with that i don't care.
just to clarify this is 'scientifically' a flawed test.

im personnally ok with Live8 sound, im just waiting pdc and the other well known nb1 request that imo have a much
more important affect on finall sound that any other thing in live engine now.

Tone Deft
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by Tone Deft » Thu May 12, 2011 1:07 am

I dig that you get it. just killing time at work.

if the test doesn't show anything there's nothing to learn.

for me a null test compares what went in to what went out. as you note, in some cases it's redundant, in others you can actually hear all the weird little artifacts. I like that stuff, plots and graphs and theory are one thing, actually hearing what aliasing or THD or SRC errors sound like and to hear just how loud they are or aren't is fun, for me.

I love the point in audio where you learn the nasty little details, then you step back and prioritize what matters. it's ALL flawed, you just have to pick your battles. it's kinda fun watching a new user learn about audio trickery then panic over it screwing up their mix then they look into it and learn to dismiss this invented problem.

audio is actually a pretty lame, non-linear, inexact, narrow bandwidth signal and our ears are weak, inaccurate sensors, but I freaking love this stuff.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
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Forge.
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by Forge. » Thu May 12, 2011 4:14 am

mr.ergonomics wrote:
abletontrainer.com wrote:
mr.ergonomics wrote:I cant resist to answer one more time here. I definitely not saying that this rumour is wrong, I can't proof that. I even had the impression too sometimes. The delay compensation isn't perfect and ableton is not sample accurate, I even have given some examples in the past for that.

But every time I have done a proper test (AxB, phase cancelation) regarding a sound quality issue it showed me that my perception regarding the SQ was just wrong. I would be very happy if someone could show a possible issue here, I'm not a blind ableton defender, but as long as no one could show something I'm tired to read about that topic.
did you watch that youtube? it puts forward some very good reasons why it's all bollocks
yeah i did know that video before and i'm a scientist person so perception bias etc. is a well known thing for me. but one should be careful (I'm not meaning you with this :wink: ) not to change to the opposite and mark all perception as bollocks. it's really easy just test it.

best regards
well, ultimately it just comes down to the fact that I've never felt there was anything in Live that prevented ME from getting mixes I am happy with, so as I've never really had a problem here I'm fairly convinced that most people who talk about this are either just regurgitating something they heard somewhere, or they are career whiners who get their kicks from talking about how shit their DAW is rather than just making some f-ing music with it.

niksG
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by niksG » Thu May 12, 2011 5:39 am

Great job ..... keep posting :D

G.D.Matteoni
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by G.D.Matteoni » Thu May 12, 2011 8:17 am

ok, so because people out of there is listening to mp3, on ipods, bad phones, youtube.. why working hard to do good sounding recordings?
so because people like to eat mcdonalds hamburgers why to cultivate fruit and vegetables?
so because people like to watch realities on the tv why doing good films or documentaries?

if you are making some track with Live just because everybody can make music with a pc and some software+loops , please leave the discussion.
if you're bored with this nobody ask you to continue. if you're satisfied that's ok.

BUT let us make questions and try to write opinions about that.
fx23 wrote:just to mention a phase cancelation test with two files at 0db proves nothing about quality. im fed up with those tests.
that's just two binary files with no process at all so that's totally normal they cancel.

when you make a complete mix, you don't just put 1 file at 0db, there are many process: simple levels automation, many summing, latency compensation, bith depth reducing ect
all those operations are real process, and have an impact on quality. a fair test would compare a totall 8 track mix, with various VSTs, and various automations/modulations curves and various sound paths made in live and reproduced 1:1 in other daw.
any other test is irrelevant.
that's a good reply, not "m bored with this topic"....
mr wiener video is an interesting view, but try to multiplicate that "inaudible" differencies for 50 tracks...

3phase
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by 3phase » Thu May 12, 2011 8:54 am

oh wow.. all this bullshit ..audio a narrow inexact low bandwidth signal..digtal is allways perfect and when you subtract two perfect signals it nulls.. and live is perfectly stable..

everybody that experiances otherwise is a whiner.

However..many happy fanboys all around..same applies to behringer products btw.. a rougher behringer sound quality never stopped anybody from finishing a production with it.. But do we claim that a behriger sounds as good as a studer?
No.. we dont..

But in the digital Domain we do claim that every 32 bit float daw should sound the same ..it´s just mathematics.no magial mojo iron blocks in the sum that shape our sound..

Logical assumption..

And therfore abletons states theire daw is just like that.. as good as any other.. aslong warp is not engaged...

But is that the truth? Just because theory implies that it should all be the same it has to be the same?

And everybody that experiances the brown henke dither phenomen is an audio retard?

Just like with Abletons unstability issues? Everybody that experiances Live 8 as unstable is doing something wrong?

I would say people that wipe away sightings of bugs with a "what cant be cant be " attitude are the retards here

Isnt it possible that the bad ableton sound is based on bugs?
or is it just the same halfbaked implementation we have in all areas of the program? that comes with a price..
And in this case the price is audio precision?

Or a mixture of booth?

Fact is ..there is a repeating pattern in the brown henke dither sightings.. people use the same terms to describe it..

just google the topic and you will find many threads that describe the ableton sound as muffled..

describe that mastered files played without warp sounded dull and lifeless.. and when playing the same files via apples quicktime player it sounded much better again..


So an audio engine that cant playback a file as good as the apple quicktime player but its ok for mixdown and mastering ?? And the best thing..the fx is coming and going...crash seasons followeed by brownhenke dither seasons.. is it related to the moon? or apple pro aplikation updates? You have started the program in the wrong second, so it lost a byte?

One for sure..this wasnt the last time you heard about the bad ableton sound "rumor"..
Because this thread again was just to clarify wether its a rumor or not.
Nobody has said that one cant do a mix with it..its all about the question wether there is something to improve or not.
The audio retards that want to get this question under the table are actually the same that stated L8 a perfect stability in the public betattests 2 years ago.. So maybe not the best cast for truth finding.


Ableton live is one of the most cpu hungry and expensiv daws on the market right now..
It´s not qualified for the cheapo sound crashing all over performance.
And when you think everything is fine for you..maybe thats all history the moment you switch to another computer next year?

So its actually not wise to wipe all negativ issues with the program under the carpet. They might appear at your doorstep in the future.

However..i will spend the summer with logic.. maybe after a while the shit sound gets accaptable again when i miss the the session view.. in the moment its quite inspiring to hear how good the recordings i made the last month actualy sound.. should have made them in logic form the start and just used live to mess around..

btw.. first time since a while i rewired live into logic..the rewire bus is screwed, sound strange and makes scriiitching noises from time to time.. so the rewire bus is out of sync... and crashes ..so that option is history too as it looks..
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macmurphy
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Re: bad ableton sound rumour - just caught myself :-)

Post by macmurphy » Thu May 12, 2011 10:07 am

G.D.Matteoni wrote:/snip.. please leave the discussion.
...
everybody has the right to post here, whatever their opinion on the subject - whether it's live sounds fine/bad/i'm sick of the discussion.

3phase wrote: btw.. first time since a while i rewired live into logic..the rewire bus is screwed, sound strange and makes scriiitching noises from time to time.. so the rewire bus is out of sync... and crashes ..so that option is history too as it looks..
yeah i've found rewire to be a little moody recently - when i start Live sometimes it says rewire has crashed/isn't working - whatever. completely random. lucky i don't use it.

keep in mind this is coming from someone who has always thought this discussion to be bollocks.
i've started remixing some recent tracks in another DAW and i'm finding that they are sounding more open and have more depth.
now, maybe it's just down to mixing in a different environment or maybe there really is something going on within Live that degrades the sound, who knows?
i know i won't be doing mixdowns in Live for the foreseeable future.

...of course there's always the chance my skills have hugely improved in the past couple of months :wink:

the only thing that really annoys me about this is attitudes from people on both sides of the fence.. such aggro.

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