Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live

Should Ableton fix the sync issues now?

yes, immediately...no scratch sync before midi sync..
149
60%
yes.. before L9
50
20%
neutral.. ableton best knows what is good for me
13
5%
No.. can wait.. i dont need to sync
30
12%
No.. i like to say no because it rhimes with moo
7
3%
 
Total votes: 249

zee verkawound
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by zee verkawound » Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:59 pm

Joshua Lee wrote: I would say that is is safe to say that it is broken

I'm not sure "broken" is the right word, just completely adolescent by design. Way underdeveloped and completely unpredictable. Why? Now that's an impossible question to answer.

Joshua Lee
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by Joshua Lee » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:25 pm

Of course +/- 2bpm is not usable, hence that over 100 people (including one Ableton employee!) think that this should be fixed at least before Live 9 comes out . And rightfully so, as it is an existing feature that does not work correctly. I call that a bug, and if Ableton keep to what they said about not doing any further development until all bugfixing was done, than it definitely should be fixed prior to the release of Live 9. We should not have to pay AGAIN for a feature that we already purchased.

From the Live manual: "Live CAN be synchronized via MIDI to an external sequencer". While this poll and testimony from Nico points out that it, in fact, can NOT be reliably synchronized to an external sequencer. Some people's testimony seems to indicate that even its performance as a Master is questionable....

I mean is there actually anybody getting this to work out there? I've heard a couple people on here say they are, but to be honest I don't even believe some of them. I would like to see some video or other evidence of sync working correctly, otherwise I am inclined to believe in it as much as I believe in Santa Claus or Bigfoot.

You would think Ableton would want us all to be able to sync and jam together. Guitars and other instruments are so ubiquitous partly for this reason. And since we won't ever have Share, we need some way of interacting together, don't we?

3phase
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by 3phase » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:24 pm

zee verkawound wrote:
Joshua Lee wrote: I would say that is is safe to say that it is broken

I'm not sure "broken" is the right word, just completely adolescent by design. Way underdeveloped and completely unpredictable. Why? Now that's an impossible question to answer.
its pretty easy to aswer that by the ableton developers by comparing what they have done with the way it should be done...

i just fear that the mangement dont frees development time to fight the problem at the source because wherever the jitter comes from it shouldnt effekt the tempo reading. and execution of the events..
Thats the great thing about clock sync that based on the temporeading each clock marks an absolute position in time of the musical piece..


And i really dont see unsolveable problems to get the tempo wright..


its also not a mistake to do it like roger linns early mpc´s, that take the user set tempo into the equation..
what allows theese older mpc´s an imideate start performance.. and also could be used as a refference that gets dominance when the mesured tempo is close enough to allows steady operation within maybe a 10 samples window and only resyncs when the window is exceded up to the moment we are inside the window again..
when this resincing is timed in part of the bar where it dont hurts to much. what usually before the one..like real drumers do it when they realize that they are wrong.. they aim to get the next 1 wright..
anyway.. in a wordclocked system this should allow for sample synchron operations with extrem long periods without resyncing..
and on a free running one good performance should be achived on another ableton as master..

on external drummachines wher the tempo is to far from the set tempo its gets a bit more complikated.. that might be the case to switch to permanent resyncing.. but in a groove designed manner..

This all is of cause not as simple as it sounds.. all kind of processes are involved.. latency compmesaton..or
the samplerate conversion has to kick in on a tempo change..
and it shoud switch of when we have matcehd tempos again..
therefore its a bit critical that abltons internal tempo resolution has 4 digits.. while the user set tempo only has 2..

you defently have to take care that you dont get missinterpretations here by roundig errors..
so the program thinks it runs on 120,0001 bpm and switches acordingly SR on.. just to realize after 32 bars that it was wrong to go to 120,0500 bpm to run after the master..resultig in SR on..

so SR is actually all the time on..

one would think that letting it run on its original tempo and ignoring everything lower than 2 digits, or even just force the set tempo, up to the resyncing point would allow at least long chunks of clean audio..

And life syncing life that portions can be actually pretty long.. you try by just free syncing withou word clocking.. it takes a while to get distractiv..actually sounds pretty cool for a long part of the travel.. so a minimal dift is more musical than drunken wobbeling..maybe a question of taste.. agian..i really think we need 2 slave options.. thats by far the smaller compromize and allows for more error in the implementation when we allways have an alternativ mode.
So one bug in the one algorythm dot kills the party.

However-
its defently not a trival task and needs some development time and therfore budget.
But would be worth the hazzle to invest in a 2000 ready clock sync algorythm instead sticking to the really bad 1995 "consumer hard disk recording program on a pc" standard. could be the basis of an own ableton sync format or at least would allow production quality operation in network sync.. with slight glitches at the resync points of cause.

but its much easier to edit a temprorar short glitch in a recording done in such a sync.. than having constant pitchmodulations on the tracks..

The glitch might be just what live is doing now any bar.. so its not necessarily somthing that needs to be eddited.
depends of a good adjustment of the involved algorythms..

IMO opinion constant resyncing is a worst case szenario..not a mode of standard operation in a stable setup between ableton computers..

the best sync mode we have wright now is to just dont sync it, dj sync with the nudgs

Thats the one with working latecy compesation.. samplerate conversion off wher it should be off ..stable repitch clips and tight groove, try it.. it sound much better than lives ssad try to follow a midi clock instead just counting it and run on its own speed..

This actually shows how such a stable tempo resyncing should work..like automated dj sync with precise positioning and imideate start performance by considering the set tempo as wished start tempo..so we can run without any pre calculation..
so easy so genial..thank you Mr. Linn
Than we add the ability to recognize tempochanges on top of that..
so 2 algorythms dynamical selected acording to the situation.. fulled by arteficial intelligence..

yeeaahhh.. :o

so..that was enough for beeing paying betatester..
and of cause only represents one way to solve the situation..there are others..
But my opinion is that i dont think less than a dj can achive by listening, is not apropiate for a clocksync with 24 ppq that arrives in uS precission...
not in the year 2010..
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

davepermen
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by davepermen » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:34 am

Tone Deft wrote:I think support just gets frustrated with 3phase. there was an open dialog earlier in this thread.
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... 3#p1185003
ah, nice, yeah, definitely no ban-on-support. this is just nis not reading 3phase posts on the forum anymore (the forum is not a place for support per se, that's what support@ableton.com is for)
at times I don't think 3phase realizes just how strong his language can be. English isn't his first language and he picks strong words and phrases.
i don't think he's any different in german. but yeah, he doesn't understand that his language and behaviour is massively contraproductive to what he one day wanted to archive (and i don't believe he really still wants to actually fix his problems)
[uote]
if people are going to quote this poll can we get a poll that doesn't reflect an agenda? I find this poll silly. anyone that's frustrated with 3phase probably ignored it.[/quote]
i voted, but the vote is silly yes. and typical 3phase crying and bias.

anyways, lovely in here :)
http://davepermen.net my tiny webpage, including link to bandcamp.

Poster
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by Poster » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:43 am

davepermen wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:I think support just gets frustrated with 3phase. there was an open dialog earlier in this thread.
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... 3#p1185003
ah, nice, yeah, definitely no ban-on-support. this is just nis not reading 3phase posts on the forum anymore (the forum is not a place for support per se, that's what support@ableton.com is for)
[nis] wrote:Btw, I stated this before: out of ten thousands of users, you are one of 3 or 4 people which have been rejected from Support staff (not only by me, but by a whole team of tech guys). We haven't done this without a reason.

davepermen
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by davepermen » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:23 am

rejecting is not a ban, though. it means he behaved inappropriate, and thus his support cases got dropped. doesn't mean they would not support him if he could behave, one day..
http://davepermen.net my tiny webpage, including link to bandcamp.

3phase
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by 3phase » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:34 am

unproductive? you maybe cant belive it, but usually such a little dossier about syncquestion from an experianced engineer costs money...
its not really common knowledge how an mpc syncs up or that the elektron machines establish a pushpull timing or how you clock a whole building aso.

And it seems not to be common knowledge how much soundquality you loose when you dare to use abletons slave sync... or what is wrong with theire dj sync..or what is wrong with theiere timecode sync..

it seems that booth ableton and user base allways only see the little problem in front of them, but never the big picture, that all this sync and audio problems are related to each other and the result of many years not taking care about the details.
So the program looks smarter than it actually is. And now with the rectified rainers program it more and more looks that this platform dont has the intention to be good its enough to be loud about beeing good.
Establishing an education program that makes it look like a studio standard instead turning it into a studio standard first by technicak quality.
There is no real intention to produce quality.
Thats what the state of the syncaffairs and many other little details are telling us.

So the guy looking into clock sync just follows the clock like a slave.. its called clockslave.. but do we have to take that literal on a daw?

and the dj sync.. works.. but not good..unpredictable start times and no micro nudging..
resulting in a much worse performance you can achive on record desks.. its a computer? dont has to as good as a record deck? why not try to mke it even better than touching vinyl?

No time? probably..
not enough constructiv creativity? looks like..

at least nobody seems to realize how clock syncing and dj syncing can relate and be combined..and
how tactics and algorythms out of that can be very valuable tools for future syncing demands in our little handheld wirless ableton players or whatever..

Is Ableton a name that stands for smart software engineering?
still?
And if so.. is that deserved when there is no sense for the quality of the product?

I would say that the mess they have build up with patchwork fixings materialized in form of the L8 bugs..
and the ceo has drawn the conclusion that they have to emphazise on quality again..
That was an enlighted moment.. but..
he had the wrong idea about quality.. quality and stability is not only that it dont crashes..thats actually a standard.
Stability in operation, and stability in production quality.. regardless if i do it alone or synced to another musican..
Good working basics and smart developed details..
That is quality !!!

the syncing is only the most important part where quality is missing..because there are no workarounds because they really managed to cancel all workaround possibilitys by bugs or bad implementation..
the sync department is a real mess..
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

3phase
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by 3phase » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:01 am

Poster wrote:
[nis] wrote:Btw, I stated this before: out of ten thousands of users, you are one of 3 or 4 people which have been rejected from Support staff (not only by me, but by a whole team of tech guys). We haven't done this without a reason.
sure..the reason is that the truth sometimes hurts

beside.. they dropped the support on "my" midi crashbug..

so how smart is that? early warning..nobody else has problems..customer dont behaves and dont declares his whole hardware setup and kitchen equipment,,, very good reason?
like theese african birds that put the head in the sand?
sorry.. cant take a support serious that is behaving like popstars on a program base that is carshing on a daily base..
They needed half a year to acknoledge the crash bug..they claimed on 2 users ever had the problem
a poll in the forum showed a very different number...
and shortly after the ceo appologized.. for 2 users that had a problem !!!


however.. they dont need to like me.. i am fine when they to make the program work well, or the management allows them to do that...
Thats the only support i need from them. They cant help me with "my" bugs.. they only can help themself by getting rid of them..

and like with the crashbug i am most certain that i only see the problems a bit earlier..
People need sync..and they will loose patience soon about that..as i ve lost patience allready.
There will be much more complains when L9 gets out in the same state as we have now.

I would take a bet on that..in case we could trust ableton statements
And sadly ..i also would have to take a bet on ..when they try to fix it they will do it in halfbaked ableton style.
no production quality sync.. just less wobbeling..what should be achiveable in no time by just placing the tempo recognition at a better place and introduce some rounding on the results...
the cheap fix.. :-/

however.. better than totaly unusable as now.. we dont life in the times of quality engineering anymore.

Without asking for propper syncing we will stay for ever with the bad one..
so the biz department can turn the developers down in the middle..feels mighty and well by having saved some projekt time for shiny sales arguments like horizontal follow actions..
and we will have medicro syncing instead of inferior syncing.
what would be in any case a progress and big breakthru after 8 years..
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

silveriofunk
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by silveriofunk » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:10 am

This is the only real issue i have with live... we can't sync properly, not even with another laptop running ableton, wtf?

well, at least we have been able to send midi clock creating a network and using Ethernet cables, but it took forever to get it to work properly with modul8.

all good now, but it feels like this could be easier to do

davepermen
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by davepermen » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:18 am

3phase wrote:They cant help me with "my" bugs.. they only can help themself by getting rid of them..
which would HELP YOU. not? why don't you want to move your ass to let you help you, and help them helping you? why do you move your ass around this forum all the time attacking them, instead? better spent time? sure not.

and i'm actually rather shocked that you're still not banned from this forum for the crap you state about that company.

and, face it, you are rather alone with YOUR problem. others do have them, but not everyone. that's why they fucking need every detail to be able to reproduce and fix it. this is a FACT, nothing else. support can't be done blindly. they can't help you blindly. if your live crashes when just having two midiclips playing and no one elses does, then it's a problem only happening in YOUR SETUP. LEARN TO UNDERSTAND THIS SIMPLE FACT.

they banned subfunk. i'm impressed they still let you put their product into bad light everywhere.
http://davepermen.net my tiny webpage, including link to bandcamp.

3phase
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by 3phase » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:24 am

silveriofunk wrote:This is the only real issue i have with live... we can't sync properly, not even with another laptop running ableton, wtf?

well, at least we have been able to send midi clock creating a network and using Ethernet cables, but it took forever to get it to work properly with modul8.

all good now, but it feels like this could be easier to do

you have it working without tempo fluctuations?

i ve to admit that not every user gets disturbed by tempo fluctuations.. but i guess any user would prefer the result without if they would A/B compare it.
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

dum
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by dum » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:41 am

davepermen wrote:why do you move your ass around this forum all the time attacking them, instead? better spent time? sure not.
Why do the same handful of fanboys incessantly troll any dis-satisfied customers with all the gusto of a fundamentalist christian denouncing evolution ?
davepermen wrote: and, face it, you are rather alone with YOUR problem. others do have them, but not everyone. that's why they fucking need every detail to be able to reproduce and fix it. this is a FACT, nothing else. support can't be done blindly. they can't help you blindly. if your live crashes when just having two midiclips playing and no one elses does, then it's a problem only happening in YOUR SETUP. LEARN TO UNDERSTAND THIS SIMPLE FACT.
Delusion much ?
77% of those voting in the poll share his problem in this case.
As for the random crashes he was experiencing... he wasn't alone in that either. The board was awash with those reports. And what more can a user report in such case other than exactly what happened "it crashed, randomly on it's own"
davepermen wrote: they banned subfunk. i'm impressed they still let you put their product into bad light everywhere.
SubFunk was banned for personally & consistently insulting Dennis - an ableton employee - over some secret issue he refused to go into , and promised to continue doing so.

I know you're delusional, but saying 3phase should be banned ? wow. When you got the ableton logo tattooed on your forehead... did it hurt ?
Pasha wrote:Thanks dum for being so precise.

3phase
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by 3phase » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:49 am

davepermen wrote:
3phase wrote:They cant help me with "my" bugs.. they only can help themself by getting rid of them..
which would HELP YOU. not? why don't you want to move your ass to let you help you, and help them helping you? why do you move your ass around this forum all the time attacking them, instead? better spent time? sure not.

and i'm actually rather shocked that you're still not banned from this forum for the crap you state about that company.

and, face it, you are rather alone with YOUR problem. others do have them, but not everyone. that's why they fucking need every detail to be able to reproduce and fix it. this is a FACT, nothing else. support can't be done blindly. they can't help you blindly. if your live crashes when just having two midiclips playing and no one elses does, then it's a problem only happening in YOUR SETUP. LEARN TO UNDERSTAND THIS SIMPLE FACT.

they banned subfunk. i'm impressed they still let you put their product into bad light everywhere.
depperman.. ? could you please stop posting in this thread ? i get the idea that you just seek attention by beeing "involved"
in the "big" fight..

you dont even oppose to the wish for better syncing?so what is your agenda here?
I am not putting ableton in a bad light.. i only put some light in the dark corners..
and what shall i say.. the cleaners missed them too.

when this is putting them in a bad light we have exactly the same situation as with "my" bugs..
Only they can change that. and they should change that.. because me shutting up is really a sign for quality
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

Manik
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by Manik » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:55 am

Yes

when ableton fixes this problem it will dominate the live scene!!!
Midi is so important for live gig's

please for the sake of conversation fix it

necho
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by necho » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:01 pm

3phase wrote:
davepermen wrote:
3phase wrote:They cant help me with "my" bugs.. they only can help themself by getting rid of them..
which would HELP YOU. not? why don't you want to move your ass to let you help you, and help them helping you? why do you move your ass around this forum all the time attacking them, instead? better spent time? sure not.

and i'm actually rather shocked that you're still not banned from this forum for the crap you state about that company.

and, face it, you are rather alone with YOUR problem. others do have them, but not everyone. that's why they fucking need every detail to be able to reproduce and fix it. this is a FACT, nothing else. support can't be done blindly. they can't help you blindly. if your live crashes when just having two midiclips playing and no one elses does, then it's a problem only happening in YOUR SETUP. LEARN TO UNDERSTAND THIS SIMPLE FACT.

they banned subfunk. i'm impressed they still let you put their product into bad light everywhere.
depperman.. ? could you please stop posting in this thread ? i get the idea that you just seek attention by beeing "involved"
in the "big" fight..
LOL.

The destruction of the Live forum is almost complete.
_________
sigs suck.

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