Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live

Should Ableton fix the sync issues now?

yes, immediately...no scratch sync before midi sync..
149
60%
yes.. before L9
50
20%
neutral.. ableton best knows what is good for me
13
5%
No.. can wait.. i dont need to sync
30
12%
No.. i like to say no because it rhimes with moo
7
3%
 
Total votes: 249

Temur
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by Temur » Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:53 pm

Ok guys, I just created an account for this issue again, because it comes back haunting us without Ableton finding the time to get it solved. There are some workaround for making Live a stable Midi Clock Sync SLAVE.

To make that clear from the beginning: Unless a new bug has been introduced Live can be a very stable MASTER. I had it running as Master to my external Korg 01/W for hours (!) without the two drifting apart audibly (running a click on both Live and the internal sequencer of the Korg).
DOM, Posted: Tue Nov 04, [u]2008[/u] 2:16 pm wrote:Can't confirm or deny this yet, but we will investigate.
As you can see all of this has been discussed and buried for a long time already within the depths of the Ableton forum (and other forums) already, so I mainly use quotes even when they are based on older versions of Live.

In the past Ableton...
Timur on the Gearslutz forum wrote:tell their customers that this is only a "cosmetic" issue (meaning only the visual BPM counter is moving while the Clock should be stable). But that is not true as can be seen in these screenshots (showing Kontakt 3 plugin running as Slave to the same Master clock on the same computer via Kore 2 and via Live 7):

Image Image

It should be noted that the higher the BPM the more a Midi clock signal will vary in its BPM value, but the relative percentage should still be much lower than happening with Live.

Workaround: There are two possible workarounds.

1. Use Midi Time Code instead of Clock Sync. Live can theoretically sync to Time Code sample-accurately (albeit Ableton Support denies that this is even possible I had two instances cancel/null/invert each other).

The drawback of this solution is that you have to manually set the tempo on the slaves. So if you are playing a set with varying tempi you have to watch out not to forget that.

2. Rewire Live as a slave to a Midi Sync stable master. That way the Rewire master will do the Midi sync part and control Live's tempo accordingly.

Drawback of this solution is that Live does not allow you to use external plugins while being a Rewire slave (I think only Reaper allows that).

Solution: Make Ableton fix their Midi Clock implementation.
Two things I like to stress about this discussion:

1) You should *not* discuss BPM values when measuring the tempo of the SLAVE, but percentage. +-1 bpm at 100 bpm is the same 1% as +-3 bpm at 300 bpm, +-3 bpm at 100 bpm is the same as +-9 (!) bpm at 300 bpm.

You may notice in the above screenshots that the Kore+Kontakt instance varies bpm by a far smaller percentage compared to the Live+Kontakt instance. Both were running as slaves to the same Master clock (via jitter-free MidiYoke connections to a Master running on the very same computer).

2) You should not (solely) rely on Live's BPM counter for your measurements but use a third-party one, preferably a VST/AU plugin that comes with its own BPM counter, like Kontakt. That is because Live BPM *display* may vary from its real internal counter. And the above screenshot in fact seem to imply either that or imply that the plugin gets fed another bpm/tempo than Live is using for itself (I assume the first, not the latter).

Not to mention that "audible" measurements like listening for phase shifts with the same audio-clip running on Master and Slave can often better pinpoint any drifting/wobbling.
Last edited by Temur on Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We're all mad in here...

Temur
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by Temur » Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:55 pm

Concerning Live's "ability" to send "Song Position" information. It can be used as a trick to get Master and Slave back into Sync *during playback*:
Crash aka Timur in October 2008 on Ableton Forum wrote: Here is a little trick to get Live back into Sync with another Sequencer/Live instance:

Live sends absolute "Song Position" informations out over Midi whenever you hit Play and whenever you change the "Arrangement Position" field manually.

That means whenever you notice Live and another Sequencer/Live running out of Sync you can try to get them back by sending an absolute Song Position to the slaved Sequencer/Live. The best way to do that would be to (stop the song and) hit Play. But sometimes you want to keep your set running without interruption, how can that be done?

1. Set Quantisation to 1/32 (alternatively to Off, but the result may be slightly different).

2. Click on the "1/16th" part of the Arrangement Position field to activate it.

3. Hit and release "Cursor Up" on your keyboard quickly, this will "fast forward" your set by 1/32th max.

Depending on how well timed you hit the key you may not audibly hear any jump/interruption at all. I advice to wait until shortly before the end of a full beat/loop cycle, because it sounds more natural then.

Eventhough a single hit of the key/ff will send a Song Position out it may be necessary to do it more than once in order to get badly out of Sync instances back to Sync. The best way would still be to stop the playback and restart. The latter is especially wise during breaks in between songs if you can afford some seconds of silence.
We're all mad in here...

3phase
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by 3phase » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:15 pm

Temur wrote: 2) You should not (solely) rely on Live's BPM counter for your measurements but use a third-party one, preferably a VST/AU plugin that comes with its own BPM counter, like Kontakt. That is because Live BPM *display* may vary from its real internal counter. And the above screenshot in fact seem to imply either that or imply that the plugin gets fed another bpm/tempo than Live is using for itself (I assume the first, not the latter).

Not to mention that "audible" measurements like listening for phase shifts with the same audio-clip running on Master and Slave can often better pinpoint any drifting/wobbling.

when i recall it wright ther was earlier live versions that just had a stable tempo window but was wobbeling none the less..
,aybe i mix that up with another program..

however i messured the midi output on 16th notes with and in the actual versions the bpm couter seems to be acurate..
when it wobbles it wobbles and when its stable it is stable..

however.. you are wright..allways trust your ears...


and thanks for the work around tips.. but that this os an old issue is the problem we aare talking about..
a way to old issue..
ad all workarounds are not really fixing the situation regarding production quality in live situations..

so a real fix with a good and versatile concept behind would be the best..to clear that once and for all and not a littöe fix here ad the rest in another year ..or 2 or 3... as usual
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

broc
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by broc » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:51 am

Temur wrote:2) You should not (solely) rely on Live's BPM counter for your measurements but use a third-party one, preferably a VST/AU plugin that comes with its own BPM counter, like Kontakt. That is because Live BPM *display* may vary from its real internal counter.
Thanks for mentioning this.
In fact, when using a Kontakt plugin it can be seen that Live updates the internal tempo continuously.
So the BPM display in Live is just a tempo snapshot every half bar.

I have used a Max program that receives midi clock and calculates BPM from each interval.
It shows basically the same behavior as Live, namely fluctuations around 0.5 BPM at tempo 120.
Since the clock interval is around 20ms this corresponds to midi jitter in the order of 0.1ms.

On the other hand, as shown earlier on this thread:
calculating the average from 48 intervals results in exact and constant tempo of 120.00 BPM.

So in conclusion I'd say that Live doesn't do something "wrong".
It just doesn't apply a smoothing (dejitter) method like other programs (eg. Reaktor and Kore).
However, these programs are not really comparable to Live as a DAW.

3phase
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by 3phase » Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:26 pm

broc wrote: It shows basically the same behavior as Live, namely fluctuations around 0.5 BPM at tempo 120.
Since the clock interval is around 20ms this corresponds to midi jitter in the order of 0.1ms.

So in conclusion I'd say that Live doesn't do something "wrong".
It just doesn't apply a smoothing (dejitter) method like other programs (eg. Reaktor and Kore).
However, these programs are not really comparable to Live as a DAW.
sorry ..i have to oppose to this..that clearly shows that ableton is doing soemthing wrong here..

a clock jitter the equals with a soundevent missplacement of 0,1 ms is acceptable and considred a good miditiming..

pretty much what an atari was doing on a not overloaded midi bus.. and just a little worse than the performance of an akai mpc..

so how do we end up on such a jitter with wrong temporeadings that cause an event displacement of >3 ms..

so at least a factor 20 or more worse result that what we sould get?


i made a reaktor patch to measure clock jitter.. as more distances between clockticks you measure in refference to a stable timer as higher the likeliness the result of the rounding is exactly the source tempo.. ( considerig master and slave are on the same timebase > sample clock )..

I am able to get a 100% correct temporeading with a reaktor patch..
on the same clock ableton is going mad..


ablton is measuring the tempo 2 times the bar.. so 48 clockticks go into the equation..
well enough to achive stable readings.. beside.. on a stable tempo there is no reason to limit the common denominator on just 48 ticks. so as mentioned earlier in the thread,,a variable window that changes on tempochanges would be the way to go..

But:
when i measure only one tick.. i have variations of the reading on a stable clock.

what is easy to explain..
the samplefreq, is relativ rough quantized timebase.. so the sigle tick ..except of 125 bpw and a few other tempos... has to be displaced by at least one sample.. cant go inbetween the samples.

So we never can get the correct result by measuring only one clock tick..or the distance over 48 tick..
rounding is mandatory !!! we measure 48 times and build a common denominator on that.

that is nothig only non daw´s do..
its something any audioprogram that interpretates clock ticks in a synced system has to do.

that the result of single clocktick measurements looks so damn close to what live is doing on my computer in external sync only leaves two options..
either ableton forgot about the mandatory common denominator building or its not working as it should...
or..
internal timing delays screw up an even rounded result by causing much bigger event displacements than only 1 sample before the algorythm can do the rounding.. so bad placement of that algorythm inside the software

Booth cases would qualify as a bug when one thinks a bit closer about it.

And bugs should be fixed as soon as they are realized..

And for the next big upgrade there are lots of even better possible improvements in the syncing department than just fixing the temporeading of an algorythm that is anyway only offering compromized performance in regards of latency compensation and samplerate conversion..

Because its is just that "non daw " algorythm you are talkig about, we find in reaktor and others..just standard clocking.. no extras...
better than nothing when it would be t least tight..

But way better when there would be also the max quality option.

THe real DAW clock sync algorythm, that has yet to be developed..
No DAw before had to face that challenge.. they never intended to be carried out on the road really..
That wasnt the main agenda behind protools,nuendo,cubase or logic..

i think i gave quite some input how such an algorythm could look like and belive that its not an impossible challange..
Just only one for daw´s people want to use on stage together..

so wright now an exclusiv ableton call.
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

pulse
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by pulse » Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:18 pm

Hi there,

I dont have time to read the 22 pages, but I found two solutions about this clock problem.

1) about the config
if you are with a mac, in the standard config audio & midi (of the mac itself not from live), choose in the audio tab that the sync master is the device and not the mac. For me this setting made me go from bad clock to perfect clock (sync DSI Elvolver)

2) plugin clocker
do a search in google with clocker plugin vst and you will find this free plugin that can generate his own midi clock.
I am currently using that plugin to be able to restart the clock even when live is already running. (I really love that little free plugin as I am able to use live clock but with clock stop/start from the plugin )

so with these points you should be safe 8)

fabrice segura
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by fabrice segura » Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:31 pm

on my macbook pro....

the serato drivers are very bad..poor sound and glitch... and the two softwares are very slowly.. sync is horrible
:(

i hope it will be better in a near future

siddhu
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by siddhu » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:59 pm

tchan wrote:
3phase wrote:i wonder if it wouldnt be very nice and usefull when the slave just smoothly adjusts to that external clock but keeps his actual timing offset up to the next restart event..this way one can prepare for slave operation by switching the EXT button without damaging the performance and the straight resyncing only happens on the next restart..this way the slave operator can decide itself at any time to get out of his slavery and back in without damage to the performance..after having ensalved himself again he might request a restart from the master..

with song position pointer / song mode clock that could be even enhanced to a point where a user might load another projekt..switches the ext button and gets auto started at the next syncpoint without having the master restarted..
this is an awesome idea for a group performance situation! i'd also like to suggest another option to achieve this...once the slave operator loads the new project and enables EXT sync, maybe the master operator can send a restart command that's tied to the global quantize value? similar to triggering a clip except you're restarting the clock. this way, the restarts are more smooth and in time. right now, it gets kinda glitchy when i restart all the laptops.

it would also be awesome if everyone on the midi network can seamlessly take turns being the master and slave clock. this way, it's easier for people to load new projects and sounds...perhaps limiting our need to create ridiculously over-bloated projects with hundreds of scenes ;-)

hehe...i'm hoping these suggestions can evolve into a new feature set centered around group sync..."live band mode" :P
Live band Mode what a great idea!!.

I'd really like to see even a proprietary system that would perfectly sync two Live sessions over Ethernet so that we don't have all these ridiculous sync issues. I've been dealing with this headache for over 2 years since the heart of our show is 2 laptops sync'ed together + outboard gear.

With a specially developed protocol, there could also be a way to keep PDC active on the slave machine since they could share info on plug-in latency. This may not work on the fly, but imagine that before starting the slave, you hit a button so that the two sets can share latency info and adjust PDC so both instances function as one big live set, just spread out over two machines.

Ableton needs one release version that's full of features for "Live Band Mode"!! Enough of all the DAW centric features.

Just my .02 centimes

The Carpet Cleaner
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by The Carpet Cleaner » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:14 pm

pulse wrote:Hi there,

I dont have time to read the 22 pages, but I found two solutions about this clock problem.

1) about the config
if you are with a mac, in the standard config audio & midi (of the mac itself not from live), choose in the audio tab that the sync master is the device and not the mac. For me this setting made me go from bad clock to perfect clock (sync DSI Elvolver)

2) plugin clocker
do a search in google with clocker plugin vst and you will find this free plugin that can generate his own midi clock.
I am currently using that plugin to be able to restart the clock even when live is already running. (I really love that little free plugin as I am able to use live clock but with clock stop/start from the plugin )

so with these points you should be safe 8)

When I try to use Maschine as a standalone with Live, maschine is the master clock and live the slave, and it's not cool, I got latency, but the worst is that if I fix the latently with live midi clock delay, it still drift so after few bars it's out of sync.

I tried to go in the Audio Devices mac settings, but I cannot change Clock Source of any output (the buil-tin output, or my M-audio)...

Any advice to fix this latency/drifiting problem?

3phase
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by 3phase » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:39 pm

The Carpet Cleaner wrote:
pulse wrote:Hi there,

I dont have time to read the 22 pages, but I found two solutions about this clock problem.

1) about the config
if you are with a mac, in the standard config audio & midi (of the mac itself not from live), choose in the audio tab that the sync master is the device and not the mac. For me this setting made me go from bad clock to perfect clock (sync DSI Elvolver)

2) plugin clocker
do a search in google with clocker plugin vst and you will find this free plugin that can generate his own midi clock.
I am currently using that plugin to be able to restart the clock even when live is already running. (I really love that little free plugin as I am able to use live clock but with clock stop/start from the plugin )

so with these points you should be safe 8)

When I try to use Maschine as a standalone with Live, maschine is the master clock and live the slave, and it's not cool, I got latency, but the worst is that if I fix the latently with live midi clock delay, it still drift so after few bars it's out of sync.

I tried to go in the Audio Devices mac settings, but I cannot change Clock Source of any output (the buil-tin output, or my M-audio)...

Any advice to fix this latency/drifiting problem?
ther shouldnt be drift.. do you sync internaly ? maybe try machines midi out to a midi in of another interface to isolate the problem.. at least that should work as "good" it usually does.. so only tempofluctuation but staying in sync.
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

The Carpet Cleaner
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by The Carpet Cleaner » Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:44 am

3phase wrote:
The Carpet Cleaner wrote:
pulse wrote:Hi there,

I dont have time to read the 22 pages, but I found two solutions about this clock problem.

1) about the config
if you are with a mac, in the standard config audio & midi (of the mac itself not from live), choose in the audio tab that the sync master is the device and not the mac. For me this setting made me go from bad clock to perfect clock (sync DSI Elvolver)

2) plugin clocker
do a search in google with clocker plugin vst and you will find this free plugin that can generate his own midi clock.
I am currently using that plugin to be able to restart the clock even when live is already running. (I really love that little free plugin as I am able to use live clock but with clock stop/start from the plugin )

so with these points you should be safe 8)

When I try to use Maschine as a standalone with Live, maschine is the master clock and live the slave, and it's not cool, I got latency, but the worst is that if I fix the latently with live midi clock delay, it still drift so after few bars it's out of sync.

I tried to go in the Audio Devices mac settings, but I cannot change Clock Source of any output (the buil-tin output, or my M-audio)...

Any advice to fix this latency/drifiting problem?
ther shouldnt be drift.. do you sync internaly ? maybe try machines midi out to a midi in of another interface to isolate the problem.. at least that should work as "good" it usually does.. so only tempofluctuation but staying in sync.
Yea, I tried internaly with maschine virtual midi output, I tried with the IAC driver, then I tried with a midi cable going to my m-audio... same results.

broc
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by broc » Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:37 am

I can confirm that Live as midi clock slave doesn't drift in general. So machine as master seems to be the culprit here.

3phase
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by 3phase » Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:37 pm

siddhu wrote:
tchan wrote:
3phase wrote:i wonder if it wouldnt be very nice and usefull when the slave just smoothly adjusts to that external clock but keeps his actual timing offset up to the next restart event..this way one can prepare for slave operation by switching the EXT button without damaging the performance and the straight resyncing only happens on the next restart..this way the slave operator can decide itself at any time to get out of his slavery and back in without damage to the performance..after having ensalved himself again he might request a restart from the master..

with song position pointer / song mode clock that could be even enhanced to a point where a user might load another projekt..switches the ext button and gets auto started at the next syncpoint without having the master restarted..
this is an awesome idea for a group performance situation! i'd also like to suggest another option to achieve this...once the slave operator loads the new project and enables EXT sync, maybe the master operator can send a restart command that's tied to the global quantize value? similar to triggering a clip except you're restarting the clock. this way, the restarts are more smooth and in time. right now, it gets kinda glitchy when i restart all the laptops.

it would also be awesome if everyone on the midi network can seamlessly take turns being the master and slave clock. this way, it's easier for people to load new projects and sounds...perhaps limiting our need to create ridiculously over-bloated projects with hundreds of scenes ;-)

hehe...i'm hoping these suggestions can evolve into a new feature set centered around group sync..."live band mode" :P
Live band Mode what a great idea!!.

I'd really like to see even a proprietary system that would perfectly sync two Live sessions over Ethernet so that we don't have all these ridiculous sync issues. I've been dealing with this headache for over 2 years since the heart of our show is 2 laptops sync'ed together + outboard gear.

With a specially developed protocol, there could also be a way to keep PDC active on the slave machine since they could share info on plug-in latency. This may not work on the fly, but imagine that before starting the slave, you hit a button so that the two sets can share latency info and adjust PDC so both instances function as one big live set, just spread out over two machines.

Ableton needs one release version that's full of features for "Live Band Mode"!! Enough of all the DAW centric features.

Just my .02 centimes

yep...i know more and more people that have theire few but powerfull hardware boxes and a laptop but like to jam together.. like in former times to guitarists with each an amp and two stomp boxes liked to play together.. or 2 percussionists with theire own sets of congas...

problem is that people like us are seen as a freaky minority in the modern computer geek or dj geek world..

Would be probably good if people that are into band related features start own threads or wishlist entrys or mails to ableton to gives that demand additional focus independent from the sync issue.. which of cause interfears the most with the jam situation..

but in general we can see a tendency in lives development that is getting of stage rather in the direction of a max aiding programming enviroment. even the plain daw functionality is not high on the agenda... just want to mention here the age old feature wish for beeing ableton to have multiple arrange versions or projekts open at once.. very handy for a daw...for compiling albums or shows... wished from day one..never touched.. but dj bridges and max integrations within month are no problem...

face it..its a geeks world.. but it would be nothing..nothing..with out a freak or a girl... :lol:
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

ckluxen
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by ckluxen » Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:32 pm

Electribes are getting out of sync, too. They sync perfect to renoise and anything else. Thinking about setting renoise as master and syncing live by IAC. Renoise as rewire master isn`t a workaround.

dtm
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Re: Fix the sync issues now !! yes or no ?

Post by dtm » Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:35 pm

3phase wrote:
broc wrote:
3phase wrote:one other observation..when beeing in EXT sync mode..its is possible to switch that off and your slave just runs allong with out iteruption.. great

but.. siwtching it on while running again even on the wordclocked sytem causes a glitch that allmost sets the slave in the offbeat.
Interestingly also, Live responds to MIDI clock Start and Stop commands even if no clock messages are sent. This can be checked by sending a MIDI clock master through eg. MidiPipe (on Mac) and filtering out the clock messages. In this case Live as slave will just start and run on its own tempo.

But it should be noted that this behavior does not conform to the MIDI standard:

MIDI Start is just a warning to let the slave know that the next MIDI Clock represents the downbeat, and playback is to start then.
its a pretty interesting question here how live starts to run in sthe absence of an external clock...

does this say that lives internal clock is runnig permanently?

and if this is the case.. the moment you send the start command relates to the momet of the actual start just how that is realted to the free running internal clock.. so the actual moment of start execution can vary to the amount of time between the single clockticks?

ok.. that could explain the eratic start behaviour when beeing in free sync aswell..

and if its working as such i would say a reset of such a internal clockcycle on a start command should be executed. but thats specualtion of cause..


I any case is this nehaviour of ableton live a possible and easy syc tactics for wordclocked systems..

just have the clock filter iternal.. propperly reset and offset the interal clock o such a start command to provide real sync start.. and free running live machines can be synced without much effort.

This also might better the situation for dj sync when the start perfomance of live as tempo master gets more precise..
Been dealing with this exact problem since live 6 and reached the same conclusion.. You are absolutely correct. The midi standard suggests that a slave should be receiving tempo information even whilst "stopped". Live appears to have it's own internal tempo setting and until you hit play your slaves don't receive anything, or worse, resort to their own internal clock until it receives the cue to start. Ableton then does this kind of "catch up" thing and they both end up out, and by a different value each time you do it. All hardware sequencers I've used seem to conform to the standard, the clock "ticks" should still be present before you even hit play. What annoys me most is watching Live's clock re-adjust itself after every looped clip, like it's speeding things up briefly to adjust for latency at the beginning of each new triggered clip. Why there isn't just a mode to allow for a pre-triggered play start with no effect on the tempo is beyond me.
Last edited by dtm on Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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