does ableton owe us something for a crap ver.8?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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john gordon
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does ableton owe us something for a crap ver.8?

Post by john gordon » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:43 pm

As with at@t and apple people are putting their foot down and demanding some sort of explanation or even a refund with their computer or iphones,i think ableton owes us something for a shit product that was released to the public while it should have been still in beta for at least another couple months.i cant even go a couple hours without some sort of crash these days.unacceptable ableton! if and when 9 is released we should get a really good price or else not buy their product anymore.i have many friends who think the same way and im sure all you guys do as well. i cant even play live with this shit version,i have to play with 7.ableton 8 should be known as ableton shit.

Machinesworking
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Re: does ableton owe us something for a crap ver.8?

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:08 am

Every DAW manufacturer goes through a shitty version. That said, Live should never have been a DAW.
Yeah, I said it! Ableton have been so busy adding new DAW features to 6-7-8 that finally Live experiences code bloat and becomes hard for them to release a version that's solid on everyone's system. My uneducated take on it, but it sure looks that way?

I've loyally bought every version up until 8, at 8 during beta testing I didn't think it was stable enough. Then the bomb of them raising the price of upgrades, during a recession. :evil:
It's their right, but I'm still not happy about that, they keep on having "sales" where they drop it back down to the price it was for the last couple upgrades, but I'm always broke at the same time they must be! :lol: Plus I'm adopting a "buy Live at the last stable version" until I see less pain from users in future upgrades. I've voted with my wallet, DP7 is on the way, Live and Logic stay at 7 and 8, while Live 8 and Logic 9 continue to get spotty revues like yours!

In the past I've been a loyal Ableton fan, but I've come to realize that they're just another company who make a product I like with various issues that they have. Defining themselves as one of the most expensive sequencers out there while releasing arguably the buggiest version yet while refusing to address long standing well documented issues that some users have with basic sequencer utilities like Beat Clock Sync out is starting to wear me out though. :evil:

agent314
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Re: does ableton owe us something for a crap ver.8?

Post by agent314 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:12 am

What are you guys trying to do that gets so many crashes so consistently?

I'm using 8.1 with a Cakewalk UA25EX interface and have pretty much zero crashes, and I have a fair amount of stuff going on in a given set.

agent314
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Re: does ableton owe us something for a crap ver.8?

Post by agent314 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:13 am

And I'm sure they'd be willing to refund your money and take away your license if you felt like you didn't want to use it anymore. :D

Machinesworking
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Re: does ableton owe us something for a crap ver.8?

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:21 am

agent314 wrote:And I'm sure they'd be willing to refund your money and take away your license if you felt like you didn't want to use it anymore. :D
Live 8 is buggy for many many people. Plenty of people here who before would never talk anything at all negative about Live have been doing so, it's not a
negative nancy issue. Plenty of people have had their issues solved in updates too, so like I said, I ain't buying until it's fully cooked, and all you saps are salivating on Live 9's new features that every other DAW has had for the last ten years! ;)

Just don't come crying to me when it takes down your system! :P

3dot...
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Re: does ableton owe us something for a crap ver.8?

Post by 3dot... » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:30 am

+1

I wonder..
did anybody count the number of beta versions released since the "official" release until now?!
the bug fixes and "problems solved"? !
seems to me those numbers will be surprisingly BIG..

at one point they even acknowledged that something is wrong
they gave a (very)modest rebate way back... (for not addressing issues on time)
nice gesture.. but not hardly enough.. also the 'apology' (quality statement)
but I believe the troubles and shear frustration caused by this version (and early L7 as well for me) are a tad more serious
(and documented in here as well as in my mail)

the sale tactics before L8s' official release were borderline fraud in more than one aspect

it was a bad deal.. plain and simple.
I felt I was sold a concept.. not a working implementation .

Abletons' product is still very much unique..
and so.. not much competition... good for them !
but I have a feeling things are gonna change in the coming year or so in that aspect...
and saving money on de-bugging isn't gonna help when that train comes around..

only recently has L8 started working as it should for me (8.1.3)
(which means they should have released it right about nowish...
but then they wouldn't have the benefit of us massively beta-testing for A YEAR
man... most of L8 power users could easily get a job in software QA...with a year plus of experience..
that's what I was doing a lot instead of making music.. sending bug reports and recovering from crashes... )

I would think thrice before I choose to upgrade again...
fooled me once...sh..shame on you(?)..

still..
I hope these kind of strategies won't be used against us again..
I like Ableton and love their ..ehm...concept.
I've paid a pretty large some of money for the license..
wouldn't mind waiting longer for a 'finished' version/product.

(and don't sell us b.s. about small team etc.
Ableton is a world known brand name which almost every musician in the world knows of...except YoYo Ma and Kenny G)

rant over.
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3dot...
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Re: does ableton owe us something for a crap ver.8?

Post by 3dot... » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:35 am

Machinesworking wrote: In the past I've been a loyal Ableton fan, but I've come to realize that they're just another company who make a product I like with various issues that they have. Defining themselves as one of the most expensive sequencers out there while releasing arguably the buggiest version yet while refusing to address long standing well documented issues that some users have with basic sequencer utilities like Beat Clock Sync out is starting to wear me out though. :evil:
THIS!
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Tone Deft
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Re: does ableton owe us something for a crap ver.8?

Post by Tone Deft » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:43 am

fools and their money...

that's why companies make demo products. you'd be an idiot to spend hundreds of dollars without trying the software first. there's even a FREE beta period. FREE DOWNLOAD, try it, beat it up, report issues, all that. no, spend the money THEN start your whining.

:roll:

you fucked up, deal with it.

works fine on my system, the problem couldn't be your computer?
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

3dot...
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Re: does ableton owe us something for a crap ver.8?

Post by 3dot... » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:56 am

^^
first of all . who you callin' a fool bitch? :lol:

yes. I fucked up .I admit.
in putting my trust in Ableton. I was a fanboi
I believed that these issues will be addressed quickly enough.
even though I have been testing the beta since before it went public.
and knew they weren't ready..
and also.. I could pay 50$ less..if upgrading early
(am not a rich man)
I've been using Live since v3.. and up until had no problems..

also..
I build and sell audio systems for audio/video studios as a side gig.
so believe me when I tell you that both my machines were very much stable with anything else running on them.
and the audio-interfaces I'm using have never ever ever caused me grief.

so yeah.. maybe I was a bit Naive..
glad to hear you had it good..
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3dot...
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Re: does ableton owe us something for a crap ver.8?

Post by 3dot... » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:59 am

Tone Deft wrote: works fine on my system, the problem couldn't be your computer?
also.. could also be due to the fact that we're not using it in the same way...
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mr.ergonomics
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Re: does ableton owe us something for a crap ver.8?

Post by mr.ergonomics » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:05 am

yeah that all may be true when we speak about how the world should be, but this is the real world... and I have the utter most respect how they deal with this problem. many things are not great absolutely, but compare them against other companies and then judge again.

friend_kami
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Re: does ableton owe us something for a crap ver.8?

Post by friend_kami » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:10 am

m mostly pissed off that they sold live with share as one of their biggest features.
where is share?
i freaking paid for it.
gimme.

Tone Deft
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Re: does ableton owe us something for a crap ver.8?

Post by Tone Deft » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:39 am

3dot... wrote:
Tone Deft wrote: works fine on my system, the problem couldn't be your computer?
also.. could also be due to the fact that we're not using it in the same way...
very good point. I'm tired at the end of a Monday...
first of all . who you callin' a fool bitch? :lol:
everyone that reads this. :P all of us. especially the lurkers, you fools can kiss my ass.
yes. I fucked up .I admit.
in putting my trust in Ableton. I was a fanboi
I believed that these issues will be addressed quickly enough.
even though I have been testing the beta since before it went public.
and knew they weren't ready..
ouch, well, my hat's off to you for being honest. the forum has put a friendly face to Ableton, making us more vulnerable to just jump right on.

Ableton has egg on their face, valid complaint threads all over their forums, the market will dictate what kickbacks we get to keep us interested. more DAWs are catching up to their features while they sorely lack in the Arrange view section. I'm not expecting a tug job and a pat on the back but they can't keep the price high and the quality so low. even if the claims are exaggerated, word of mouth is a STRONG marketing tool.

share? IIRC that was a monthly fee kind of thing, I've found other ways to send data around. yeah, they f-ed that up too, but I'm not really affected. hey, at least we got a VOCODER!! :roll:

everything else has already been said on this beat to death topic. it'll be interesting to see how they change after all this. what a clusterfuck. I really feel for those that rely on Live to make rent.


john - just sell your gear and move to Costa Rica, we ain't getting shit for a summer in SF. guaranteed happiness.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

sk8board
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Re: does ableton owe us something for a crap ver.8?

Post by sk8board » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:21 am

john gordon wrote:As with at@t and apple people are putting their foot down and demanding some sort of explanation or even a refund with their computer or iphones,i think ableton owes us something for a shit product that was released to the public while it should have been still in beta for at least another couple months.i cant even go a couple hours without some sort of crash these days.unacceptable ableton! if and when 9 is released we should get a really good price or else not buy their product anymore.i have many friends who think the same way and im sure all you guys do as well. i cant even play live with this shit version,i have to play with 7.ableton 8 should be known as ableton shit.
have you read the licensing agreement? they don't owe anyone shit.

leedsquietman
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Re: does ableton owe us something for a crap ver.8?

Post by leedsquietman » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:55 am

Do ya think !

It doesn't matter that they don't owe people shit, the term, gesture of goodwill exists in business, often as a substitute for an apology (to be fair we also got an official 'apology' from CEO Gerhard Behles, who admitted the product had been rushed to the market and too many eggs in one basket with Share, max 4 Live and Serato.

I think Ableton can and should do things as a gesture of goodwill, even though I agree with Tone that the product was there to beta and demo and why splash out on a crashtastic piece of software. I kept my wallet in my pocket (and it even had some readies in it at that time, pre unemployment) because I wasn't convinced by the stability of the software, which I knocked over several times in beta testing. Still releasing beta bugfixes more than a year in doesn't bode well and isn't right.

We just have to hope, as MW correctly states, that some issues are just a dog and hope for better in future. Logic Pro 7 (and 9 to a degree) are dogs, Digital Performer 6 was a dog, Cubase SX1, early versions of SX2 (up to 2.2) and the early versions of C4 were a dog. I've owned Live since 6, version 6 (apart from 6.0.1) was rock solid and version 7, while buggy at first, became rock solid 3/4 of the way into it's cycle, around 7.0.9 ish.

Ableton finally have acknowledged that they can't keep up on the annual cash grab, that they need more beta testing for longer (and not just from forum wannabees who aren't going to push it as a beta tester, but just play with the vocoder and new features a bit etc). This has hopefully been a good lesson for the Abes and will lead to a more solid and better planned product in future. Until then, I stick with Live 7.0.18 and Cubase 5.5
http://soundcloud.com/umbriel-rising http://www.myspace.com/leedsquietmandemos Live 7.0.18 SUITE, Cubase 5.5.2], Soundforge 9, Dell XPS M1530, 2.2 Ghz C2D, 4GB, Vista Ult SP2, legit plugins a plenty, Alesis IO14.

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