Abletons Unprofessional Authorisation system-Online/Offline

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
dum
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Re: Abletons Unprofessional Authorisation system-Online/Offline

Post by dum » Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:09 am

crumhorn wrote:The Only problem with Lives authorization is the inability to get a new unlock during evening and weekends. Surely this is something they could give priority too.

Any system would be broken if the file where it stores it's authorization codes gets corrupted. If Live trashes it's own file then that is a bug and needs reporting as such.

Try a Synthogy plugin sometime. I need 3 different unlock codes depending on what combination of wired and wireless networking I have enabled. Now that is crap.

As you can see in the thread, there's a spat of arbitrary shit-talking going on, but anyone who is capable of actually reading what I'm saying about the auth system will know that I think their system is shit for two simple reasons:

The first one, I highlighted in your quote, and everyone taking the topic seriously seems to agree on that. The second is simply that the unlocks are too flimsy and easy to waste doing the most basic type of computer maintenance work. However, you say any system can break through system file corruption - true enough - but if the systems that generate challenge codes based on the motherboard are deauthorised through OS maintenance etc, it's as simple as re-entering the response code you first used. Saved in a text file, and/or your email account.

And yes, bugs have been reported. but no replies, and of course it being 7.0.18 no one is likely to care. The same bug was reported back in the live 7 beta stages, by the way.

Cheers
Pasha wrote:Thanks dum for being so precise.

Amaury
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Re: Abletons Unprofessional Authorisation system-Online/Offline

Post by Amaury » Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:19 am

Hello,

I just want to make some facts straight.

- If your unlock file gets corrupt, deleted, or whatever, you can re-authorize without needing to "burn" another unlock, because yes, the unlock information is dependent on the hardware. It's not like you can authorize two time, it like, you can authorize on two different machines, or systems (two OS on the same computer is the same as two computers). Try it if you worry: rename your current unlock.cfg file, temporarily, start Live, unlock. You can repeat that as much as you want without needing more unlocks.

- If you use your last unlock, you should be informed immediately, hopefully giving you plenty of time to request more, before you need more.

The system is not perfect, no, but probably not as bad as described here. In the end you only can judge how good or bad it is, and we only can improve it. Therefore, your input is very welcome, even when phrased harshly. Apart from the "week-end problem", which hopefully is lessened by the fact you're informed you should write to CCT while you use your last unlock, I'd like to understand what are your concerns.

Now, may I suggest taking the personal fights out of this place? It makes it a bit counter productive for us to understand the problems, and there are better places all over the internet for personal matters.

Kind regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

dum
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Re: Abletons Unprofessional Authorisation system-Online/Offline

Post by dum » Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:38 am

Amaury wrote:Hello,

I just want to make some facts straight.

- If your unlock file gets corrupt, deleted, or whatever, you can re-authorize without needing to "burn" another unlock, because yes, the unlock information is dependent on the hardware. It's not like you can authorize two time, it like, you can authorize on two different machines, or systems (two OS on the same computer is the same as two computers). Try it if you worry: rename your current unlock.cfg file, temporarily, start Live, unlock. You can repeat that as much as you want without needing more unlocks.
I beg to differ.
If that is how it is in theory, that is certainly not how it is in practise. Temporarily moving/renaming your unlock.cfg might be a nice parlour trick but there is evidently more to your auth system than that file. Perhaps hardware is simply ONE variable you use ?
Taking you at your word I can only conclude your auth system has bugs, at least with Live7.

My bug report to that effect has had no reply for a week now. But then again, as [nis] said, live 7.0.18 issues aren't likely to be addressed.

Amaury wrote: - If you use your last unlock, you should be informed immediately, hopefully giving you plenty of time to request more, before you need more.

The system is not perfect, no, but probably not as bad as described here. In the end you only can judge how good or bad it is, and we only can improve it. Therefore, your input is very welcome, even when phrased harshly. Apart from the "week-end problem", which hopefully is lessened by the fact you're informed you should write to CCT while you use your last unlock, I'd like to understand what are your concerns.

Now, may I suggest taking the personal fights out of this place? It makes it a bit counter productive for us to understand the problems, and there are better places all over the internet for personal matters.

Kind regards,
Amaury
Yep, I know to beg in advance now. A good tip dispensed by those who didn't join the thread to troll. As for personal fights, agreed. Tone Deft & Shelluser et al should take heed.
Pasha wrote:Thanks dum for being so precise.

dum
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Re: Ableton's Authorisation system - Online V Offline

Post by dum » Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:40 am

mihai wrote:i'm on v. 7 and i've gone through hdd and os changes on the same computer and never an issue, once it authorized it authorized. of course i've had to authorize after each change but only once and i have done so online.
Pasha wrote:Thanks dum for being so precise.

dum
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Re: Abletons Unprofessional Authorisation system-Online/Offline

Post by dum » Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:49 am

dum wrote:My bug report to that effect has had no reply for a week now.
proving that bitching on the forum is the way to be taken seriously.
Pasha wrote:Thanks dum for being so precise.

dbfs
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Re: Abletons Unprofessional Authorisation system-Online/Offline

Post by dbfs » Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:27 am

Gotta love the software business. Its the only business where you buy a product and then you have to "check in" with the baby sitter to keep using it..

I never understood the 3 unlocks thing... And then having to e-mail and explain yourself about a 500 dollar + 100-200 updates for the last 4 years purchase like your some kind thief, just because you want to install the software again. And then not even using the hardware ID so that I can reinstall the program on the same computer as many god damn times as I want. Why? Why on earth would you do it this way?? This has bugged me for YEARS!! It creates more bullshit for you having to answer e-mails about unlocks, and just burdens the customer who makes you who you are. Studio One has a great system. You unlock a computer once.. You can reinstall and activate it as many times as you want because its just a license file you download. They give you 5 computers to install it on.. Why can't you do the same? Whats the difference? Why make the customer jump through hoops to use the software they paid for?

I'm a grown man, and having to ask to get more "access" to something I paid for already is an infuriating feeling.. I can't think of any other product where I have had to ask to use it after I paid for it.. The Software business... And they wonder why people use cracks.. This is exactly why.. 8O

Piplodocus
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Re: Abletons Unprofessional Authorisation system-Online/Offline

Post by Piplodocus » Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:18 am

Personally can't see what the fuss is about. It works for me and the Abes seem fine to give more unlocks if you use them up. I've put it on my old PC (now scrapped), my current PC, my work laptop (which was crap but meant I could mess around and experiment with simple parts while on business - not good enough to run any of my projects though), another old laptop that was too crap to do anything with, and most recently my wifes macbook. I've currently got a new MBP in the post supposed to arrive next thursday/friday. Is the end of the world nigh? No I'll probably just email them next week and check I have a spare unlock on hand so I can install over the weekend.

If I hadn't checked I had a spare unlock and the unlikely event that my computer gets corrupted (which shouldn't be happening regularly at weekends or you've got issues!) I'd only be in the same boat as if any bit of my hardware went down at the weekend. Or I'd get organised, check with the Abe's that I've got a spare unlock, and have it going again within minutes. I can't see any way Ableton can make it easier without selling dongles whereupon you probably need a new one when you update, can lose it, it's a PITA on stage etc. The thing even works and runs full sets in demo mode as long as you don't want to save!

What's the proposed alternative? I might change my opinion if you can give me a better one, but currently don't know of one I'd prefer...
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twisted-space
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Re: Abletons Unprofessional Authorisation system-Online/Offline

Post by twisted-space » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:35 pm

Hobbyist alert

Been using Live since version 5.

I wouldn't exactly call Abletons system unprofessional and I've always been given an extra unlock when requested (eventually). I do however think that:

1. Someone should be available to respond to unlock requests outside normal business hours.

2.The email response when granting unlocks should be less accusational.

Ableton should realise that people requesting additional unlocks HAVE ACTUALLY PAID FOR THE SOFTWARE. Those that want to install it on all their mates machines are most likely going to use a crack.

I think the current system is very typically Ableton, it works most of the time and it's better than some of the alternatives, but it's poorly thought out and annoying enough to piss me off while not so annoying as to make me look elsewhere (yet).
Last edited by twisted-space on Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

twisted-space
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Re: Abletons Unprofessional Authorisation system-Online/Offline

Post by twisted-space » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:47 pm

Piplodocus wrote:What's the proposed alternative? I might change my opinion if you can give me a better one, but currently don't know of one I'd prefer...

How about a serial no. like Cakewalk uses, or maybe a keyfile like the D16 plugins use. Or an unlock code like Reaper or Fabfilter use, there are lots of alternatives.

The thing is that none of the current systems (including dongles) prevent piracy, but there are lot's of developers that seem to do ok with quite simple copy protection methods that don't make their customers jump through hoops to use what they have paid for.

jbone1313
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Re: Abletons Unprofessional Authorisation system-Online/Offline

Post by jbone1313 » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:54 pm

I hate the Ableton unlock system. I much prefer iLok. Yes iLok has it's flaws, but it rules not having to beg everytime you need to make system changes. AudioEase allows iLok or CR, which I think pleases everyone. But a hassle-free, self-serve system tied to machine IDs would be good too.

Trent
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Re: Abletons Unprofessional Authorisation system-Online/Offline

Post by Trent » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:11 pm

So the moral of the story is contact Ableton in advance for unlocks...But has any one figured out how Ableton generates the authorization id?

slicedbread
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Re: Abletons Unprofessional Authorisation system-Online/Offline

Post by slicedbread » Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:25 pm

this reminds me a bit of the gun control debate in the states... good intentions, but ineffective in practice.

the only people who you are affecting and inconveniencing are those who follow the law (legit buyers). people who use cracks won't need to authorize the software.

if the goal is to thwart the casual legit buyer from installing on his buddy's computer, then how about you treat the vast majority of (legit, law-abiding) customers like adults, allowing us to install on our machines and track how many times we do it, but don't stop me from doing it and make me wait for you to grant me an exception. if i decide to reformat my drive every other week, i should have that right to do so. no other software i run barks at me when i do.

if in your judgement i have too many installs under my belt, then call me. write me a letter letting me know you are watching me. this alone will scare the crap out of someone who is sharing his license with friends.

...in other words, why can't we be more optimistic and assume the people who bought your software are not criminals?

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Re: Abletons Unprofessional Authorisation system-Online/Offline

Post by ShelLuser » Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:23 pm

slicedbread wrote:if in your judgement i have too many installs under my belt, then call me. write me a letter letting me know you are watching me. this alone will scare the crap out of someone who is sharing his license with friends.
Sure, but then you're basically working after the facts. The serial has been spread, perhaps the person in question has been 'scared' but then what?

And from a business point of view there is also the extra overhead which comes with monitoring. You'd need an infrastructure, people who perform the monitoring, the response after the threshold has been reached and people doing the follow up. All that has to be paid somehow; thus it could very well mean raising the price of Live just to cover extra expenses.

Not to mention that you're still left with one 'illegal' copy which is left out in the open. And what is stopping the friend (who might be less easily intimidated than $good_customer) from spreading the program even more?

I do agree with you though; in a perfect world this would work and it is the most preferred strategy. Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world.
With kind regards,

Peter

Using the 'Power' Trio: Live 10 Suite (+ Push & Max 8 ), Reason 10 and Maschine Mk3 (+ the ultimate Komplete 12).
Blog: SynthFan (under heavy construction!)

Jarvisimon
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Re: Abletons Unprofessional Authorisation system-Online/Offline

Post by Jarvisimon » Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:09 pm

I love Ableton's unlock system. I'm really glad they haven't gone the route of the dreaded dongle as that would make me think about getting a bootleg.

I can understand the Props using dongles for Record (so far unbootlegged) but once the hackers spend some proper time on it, this too will be available for download from a million Torrent sites.

Some people seem to have experienced Ableton accusations re new unlocks but this has never happened to me. I must admit, I don't fiddle with my computer a huge amount once it's up and running and people who do should expect their nerdish habits to create a few hassles but if they have a computer set aside solely for the purpose of making music, then I don't see why they should run into problems as often as they do.

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Re: Abletons Unprofessional Authorisation system-Online/Offline

Post by H20nly » Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:28 am

+ 1 for working weekends...

Business hours can stay the same.

Real Pros have a back up plan.


A gift for the OP:

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