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 Post subject: Using Logic's Ultrabeat with Ableton (routing into Ableton)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:06 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:03 pm
Posts: 193
hey all,
writing this from school, so can't check at home.

We're using Logic at school for an audio project, and I really like the synthesis control you get with Ultrabeat. However Ableton is my creative tool for jamming.

Would it be possible to route (with rewire) audio out of Logic's Ultrabeat onto different channels in Abelton? that way, I could use Ultrabeat to shape the sound of my percussion, but use Live for jamming and composition?

Does anyone else do this?


Assuming that's all pretty straight forward, which I think it will be, would I also be able to automate some of Ultrabeat's paremeters (eg, ADSR) and control them with hardware in Live?


cheers,
Sam


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 Post subject: Re: Using Logic's Ultrabeat with Ableton (routing into Ableton)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:42 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:36 am
Posts: 791
Location: Beijing
hi,

When I want to use Logic's sounds in Live, I use an IAC bus to send MIDI to Logic, and an audio interface with loopback to get the audio back into Live. (I use an RME RayDAT for this, but a Fireface would work or any audio interface with loopback.) I prefer this over Rewire for a bunch of reasons, not the least of which is that Logic can't be a rewire slave, and Live can't use 3d party plugs when it is a rewire slave. Rewire is a possibility of course, assuming that you can live with the limitations and don't mind having Logic as the master...

-Luddy

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 Post subject: Re: Using Logic's Ultrabeat with Ableton (routing into Ableton)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:55 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:03 pm
Posts: 193
Thanks for the reply : )

I'm not sure my soundcard has loopback (Echo Audiofire 4, looking on their site now), but I do have an Mbox Mini 2 also. Maybe I could use the mBox as Logic's out and patch the audio into Live. Will have to look into IAC for the midi also.


PS i might also look into what drum synthesizer plug-ins are similar in principal to Ultrabeat.

cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Using Logic's Ultrabeat with Ableton (routing into Ableton)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:09 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:37 am
Posts: 1097
Instead of soundcard loopback you could also use 'Soundflower' for audio routing within the computer.
But on the downside, then you may have to deal with more latency (?).


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 Post subject: Re: Using Logic's Ultrabeat with Ableton (routing into Ableton)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:50 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:42 pm
Posts: 43
luddy wrote:
When I want to use Logic's sounds in Live, I use an IAC bus to send MIDI to Logic, and an audio interface with loopback to get the audio back into Live.


Do you mind posting a quick tutorial on how to do this? I prefer the sound of Logic's pianos and would really like to use them without taking the AIFs from the Logic folder and remapping everything to a sampler in Live.


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 Post subject: Re: Using Logic's Ultrabeat with Ableton (routing into Ableton)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:52 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:03 pm
Posts: 193
tyrosine wrote:
luddy wrote:
When I want to use Logic's sounds in Live, I use an IAC bus to send MIDI to Logic, and an audio interface with loopback to get the audio back into Live.


Do you mind posting a quick tutorial on how to do this? I prefer the sound of Logic's pianos and would really like to use them without taking the AIFs from the Logic folder and remapping everything to a sampler in Live.



Yeah that would be amazing : )

In the meantime, have been playing with the demo version of Sonic Charge's MicroTonic drum synth plug-in. Might look into purchasing it when I have some cash.


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 Post subject: Re: Using Logic's Ultrabeat with Ableton (routing into Ableton)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:24 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:36 am
Posts: 791
Location: Beijing
tyrosine wrote:
luddy wrote:
When I want to use Logic's sounds in Live, I use an IAC bus to send MIDI to Logic, and an audio interface with loopback to get the audio back into Live.


Do you mind posting a quick tutorial on how to do this? I prefer the sound of Logic's pianos and would really like to use them without taking the AIFs from the Logic folder and remapping everything to a sampler in Live.


Hi,

Sure, here's a description. I wish I could post some pictures but I don't have a handy way to host the images at present.

In Audio/MIDI setup, open the MIDI Window, click on IAC Driver and create an IAC bus(es) if you don't have some already. I keep two hanging around for sending MIDI to Logic, that way I can use 32 channels of MIDI (32 Logic instruments) in case I'm doing something like string scoring with lots of parts. I'll describe how to do it with 16 channels (one IAC bus), and from there adding a second bus for additional channels is easy.

Open Live first, then Logic. That way neither is rewired to the other. In Live, create a MIDI track and route its output to the IAC bus on some channel. Create an audio track whose input is coming from the soundcard input that you're using for loopback. (The soundcard will send one of its outputs to this input, that's the loopback.) Set it to monitor ON for now so you can hear what's coming out of Logic.

The Logic side is a little more complicated.

First you need to create 16 instruments in the environment, each one listening to a different channel on the IAC bus. First create 16 software instrument tracks in the arrangement view. Then go the mixer window in the environment and lay them out them to your liking. Set their outputs to the soundcard output you're using for loopback.

Now you have to make each of these instruments listen to a different MIDI channel. In the Clicks & Ports window of the environment, find the IAC bus at the top right of the Physical Input object. Create a Channel Splitter (New > Channel Splitter) and connect the IAC bus to the input of the splitter. Now Option-Click each of the 16 output ports on the Channel Splitter, and you'll see a destination menu; go to Software Instruments and select one of the 16 software instruments you created above. When you're done, each output of the Channel Splitter should go to a different software instrument.

That's it, basically. You can save this as a template in Logic and create new instrument "racks" quickly this way. I added another layer to mine, namely, I send each instrument output to a bus/aux and create an audio track in the arrangement for that aux. This way I can record all 16 instruments' outputs at once in Logic and export the files as a bunch into Live. Usually I don't do this however, I simply print the audio one instrument at a time in Live or don't bother printing it at all, just mix directly with the software instruments in place.

hth,

-Luddy

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 Post subject: Re: Using Logic's Ultrabeat with Ableton (routing into Ableton)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:37 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:37 am
Posts: 1097
Hi Luddy,

any comments on MIDI jitter and/or audio latency with that setup?


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 Post subject: Re: Using Logic's Ultrabeat with Ableton (routing into Ableton)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:03 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:36 am
Posts: 791
Location: Beijing
broc wrote:
Hi Luddy,

any comments on MIDI jitter and/or audio latency with that setup?


I haven't tried to measure either one. I did throw a negative delay on the MIDI tracks that I sent to Logic to push the audio forward a little bit, a few ms as I recall. Mostly I have used this for strings, and with their slow attack, the timing stuff isn't very noticeable. Jitter would really surprise me, but who knows.

-Luddy

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 Post subject: Re: Using Logic's Ultrabeat with Ableton (routing into Ableton)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:15 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:24 pm
Posts: 1434
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
If they'd just allow Rewire to go in either direction and not just Live as slave to Logic, none of this cumbersome workarounds would be necessary for something like, say, using EXS24 or Ultrabeat "inside" Live.

But, sadly, Live must be slave to Logic. Lame.

-M

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 Post subject: Re: Using Logic's Ultrabeat with Ableton (routing into Ableton)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:54 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:36 am
Posts: 791
Location: Beijing
mholloway wrote:
If they'd just allow Rewire to go in either direction and not just Live as slave to Logic, none of this cumbersome workarounds would be necessary for something like, say, using EXS24 or Ultrabeat "inside" Live.

But, sadly, Live must be slave to Logic. Lame.

-M


Rewire doesn't really fix the problems that make this stuff a hassle on the Logic side. It's necessary to do some plumbing in the environment in Logic not because the MIDI is coming from an IAC bus or rewire or a physical port, but rather because Logic feeds all of its sequencer tracks through a single sequencer input object in the environment, and requires tracks to be record-armed before the instruments on them will be played when they are wired up that way. If you want a simple organization where the Logic instruments are always on and Live can just use them like external instruments, then something like the environment workaround I posted above will be necessary, even if Logic is updated so that it can be a rewire slave.

-Luddy

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 Post subject: Re: Using Logic's Ultrabeat with Ableton (routing into Ableton)
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:38 pm 

Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:37 am
Posts: 1097
luddy wrote:
mholloway wrote:
If they'd just allow Rewire to go in either direction and not just Live as slave to Logic, none of this cumbersome workarounds would be necessary for something like, say, using EXS24 or Ultrabeat "inside" Live.

But, sadly, Live must be slave to Logic. Lame.

-M


Rewire doesn't really fix the problems that make this stuff a hassle on the Logic side. It's necessary to do some plumbing in the environment in Logic not because the MIDI is coming from an IAC bus or rewire or a physical port, but rather because Logic feeds all of its sequencer tracks through a single sequencer input object in the environment, and requires tracks to be record-armed before the instruments on them will be played when they are wired up that way. If you want a simple organization where the Logic instruments are always on and Live can just use them like external instruments, then something like the environment workaround I posted above will be necessary, even if Logic is updated so that it can be a rewire slave.

-Luddy

Yes, unfortunately the general solution (i.e. more than 16 midi channels) requires plumbing in the environment.
Nevertheless, Logic as rewire slave would eliminate all midi/audio transmission and timing issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Using Logic's Ultrabeat with Ableton (routing into Ableton)
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:40 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:36 am
Posts: 791
Location: Beijing
broc wrote:
Nevertheless, Logic as rewire slave would eliminate all midi/audio transmission and timing issues.


hmm? I find very big latencies and misalignment of audio with MIDI using rewire with Live as a slave; do others not find this?

-Luddy

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 Post subject: Re: Using Logic's Ultrabeat with Ableton (routing into Ableton)
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:51 pm 

Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:37 am
Posts: 1097
luddy wrote:
broc wrote:
Nevertheless, Logic as rewire slave would eliminate all midi/audio transmission and timing issues.


hmm? I find very big latencies and misalignment of audio with MIDI using rewire with Live as a slave; do others not find this?

-Luddy

Ok, having no experience with Live rewire I was just assuming that a proper implementation would be sample accurate.
As far as I know that's true for example with Plogue Bidule rewired to Logic.


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 Post subject: Re: Using Logic's Ultrabeat with Ableton (routing into Ableton)
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:22 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:56 am
Posts: 6674
Location: greater toronto area
Logic, Cubase, Sonar, Protools, Samplitude, Digital Performer can only be run as a rewire master, not as a slave.

Live, Reaper, Renoise, energy XT, Acid Pro, FL Studio etc can run as master or slave.

Reason can only run as slave.

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