Logic vs Live

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Tarekith
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Re: Logic vs Live

Post by Tarekith » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:41 am

CR78 wrote:
Tarekith wrote:Studio One is a great app, I was on the beta-team for that, very impressed.
That's cool to hear. I just love how they laid out the workflow; super smooth and well thought out.Again, damn stable.

Do you use it now? I know you are/have been a Logic user.
As an aside, you've got to be excited about the just released Wavelab for OSX. Although you're probably still content with Wave Editor(Hell of alot less expensive).

Sorry to the OP for the slight OT.;)
I'm glad to see Wavelab is out just so I have an 'out' if Audiofile doens't come through with some of the features I'd like to see in Wave Editor. To be honest though, it does everything I need and I have a really good relationship with those guys now, so I really don't feel the need to revisit Steinberg dongle-land anytime soon.

Actually I'm not using Studio One now, which in a way is kind of dissapointing to me. I need to use Live and Logic too much for business related activities, throwing another DAW into the mix for my own use just seems like a headache. Very impressed with it through, I'd definitely recommend it over Cubase or Logic for anyone looking to go that route.

savyurrecords
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Re: Logic vs Live

Post by savyurrecords » Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:28 am

mihai wrote:
slirak wrote:Come on, talk me out of it!
get a new audio interface instead of spending the cash on logic.
10 4

Rich

Akshara
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Re: Logic vs Live

Post by Akshara » Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:50 am

slirak wrote:So now I'm thinking, maybe I should switch to Logic.

So, you folks out there who use Logic, what are its weakest points, compared to Live? (Obvious differences, like the UI, workflow and Session View aside.)

Come on, talk me out of it!
Firstly, while Session View may be an obvious difference on the surface, on a more subtle level is the non-linear way of creating and arranging which Live encourages, and which you may be taking for granted, having worked exclusively in Live for so long. No matter how cool Logic is, and how much it has evolved since becoming an Apple program, it is still a digital rendition of a multitrack reel-to-reel tape machine, i.e. linear.

Secondly, Logic has a steep learning curve, and a suite of applications to go with it. While video tutorials can help, it is still a considerable investment of time and resources to learn the whole suite.

In my opinion, the investment of time that you have put into Live over the years, and your experience with it, has considerable value, and should not be underestimated. The more efficient approach would be to begin investing in a more advanced hardware system that will be able to handle the next iteration of Live better.

leedsquietman
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Re: Logic vs Live

Post by leedsquietman » Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:05 am

I demoed Presonus Studio One and while I did like it, I found it quite lacking compared to Logic and Cubase in terms of number of fx, virtual instruments and other features. Maybe I'm set in my ways (as a 20 year + Cubase user), but I wouldn't recommend it yet, although give it a year or two it would be worth revisiting. Like the CD authoring too.

I wouldn't trade in Cubase 5 for it anyway, put it that way, which has been very stable for me too.

Reaper - Very good for $40 (good at 5 times the price IMHO), compliments Live well, but complex to set up for less experienced users and although it comes with decent enough comp and EQ, it's FX and esp. included synths are lacking. Also lacks some of the more advanced MIDI features of Cubase and Logic, has no scoring, etc. I own it and like it a lot, no dongle etc, but some of the missing features impact my workflow, so I am still using Cubase 5 most times for mixing.

Logic 9 has been quite a buggy release to date. Especially the 64 bit, but lots of documented problems and bugs still haven't been fixed.

Wavelab 7 on Mac - it's gonna sell a bundle, a lot of studios have kept PCs around solely for Wavelab and/or SOundforge. For mobile computing the dongle is a bit of a pain, but in a Mac Pro Tower in a studio, it is quickly forgotten and there are very few issues with syncrosoft compared to pace ilok. For me, if the product is worth it, the dongle isn't a dealbreaker, but YMMV.

Learning any new DAW is a steep learning curve. After 15+ years of Cubase, Protools and Logic, Live was difficult to learn too ...

The main thing to consider is both trad DAWS and Live as worthy tools which have their own strengths and weaknesses. For precision comping/audio editing/scoring/surround/advanced MIDI with logical editors etc. Live is weaker, but for composition and live work and inspiration and fun it rules. It's not terrible for mixing, and you may find it can handle all your needs, if so don't worry about getting something else, just master what you know.
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shimmy
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Re: Logic vs Live

Post by shimmy » Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:13 am

leedsquietman wrote: but for composition and live work and inspiration and fun it rules.
Amen.

Machinesworking
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Re: Logic vs Live

Post by Machinesworking » Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:19 am

Live, Logic and Digital Performer user here. Logic has become the least used, not because it's bad, but because like everything Apple does, it's a closed ecosystem.
I finally upgraded Digital Performer to version 7, which included a few basic things that make it a better compliment for Live. This isn't how most of you like to work, but a lot of people are like me and use more than one DAW. Before it was a combination of logic and Live, then everything eventually in live for performance reasons. With DP7 and Live7 I'm able to choose which system to use, even live.
Besides what people have already mentioned about Logic, it's audio routing is nowhere near as flexible as Live, and setting up multiple midi controllers is a PITA. DP7 is better this way, so of course is Cubase. What DP offers me that the others don't is multiple mixes or completely different versions of the same song in the same instance, less than 1-3 seconds to switch depending. This can also be completely different songs with completely different track mixes, something Live and Logic don't offer.

What Logic is great for is completely switching to, immersing yourself in it's way of doing things and all of a sudden you're lighting fast at micro editing. This leads in my own experience to more complex breaks and intricate parts, but the rearranging of a song after you'r almost done is a pain, which if you do it right in Live is dead easy. In the end I like Live and enjoy working in it, so my DAW of choice to compliment it should IMO work like an environment/institution for all the parts of your song to reside in, and Live as the playground. I wouldn't be surprised at all if most of my next set of songs is written almost entirely in DP7 though.

luddy
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Re: Logic vs Live

Post by luddy » Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:00 am

I used Logic for years and still use it for tracking and comping vocals and live instruments, and for preparing sheet music.

The weakest points of Logic? For me the weakest point is simply that it's unnecessarily complicated. I end up thinking about the DAW too much and the music not enough when I use it. A simple case in point: the piano roll in Logic has lots of great features, commands and options. But the bread and butter of being in a piano roll, to me, is to create notes, change their velocity and duration, copy them from place to place. In logic, there is one tool to create them, another to change their velocity, and the most natural way to change their duration is to use the basic pointer tool (i.e., a third tool). When copying notes in Logic, it is very fiddly to copy a span of time (say 2 1/2 bars starting on a bar boundary) to another span of time if the notes are not perfectly aligned with the beginning of the time span. (The insertion command wants to align the first note copied with the insertion point rather than aligning the time span with the insertion point.) Live does all those things with no tool at all, just the mouse, and it's easy as pie. Same for copying a span of time in the timeline, same with editing automation, same with folders, etc. Live's way is simpler, sometimes even a few more steps, but it's so much less burdensome to think about and use, at least for me.

The routing in Logic is another good example. You can do most anything, using busses and auxes etc., but it's such a mess to come back to a project months later and try to figure out what all the busses mean and what's routed where.

EXS24 is yet another example. It's a great little sampler, very very efficient and pretty expressive. But my goodness what a senselessly complicated interface, full of text boxes and complex options for groups etc. Very nasty to try to figure out how a complicated sampler instrument works. When you read a Sampler patch in Live, together with say instrument racks for layering, it's so obvious on the face of it what is going on.

I prefer the instruments and effects in Live suite to Logic's instruments in terms of sound and as building blocks for sound design, but I think I'm in the minority there, many people seem to think that Logic's instruments and fx are better than Live's.

Logic is amazingly efficient in terms of CPU. Comping (quickswipe) in Logic and take folders are really well done, one of the few parts of the interface that's really lean and intuitive.

At the end of the day they're both good DAWs to work in for arranging, mixing, etc. Both have strong points, there are good arguments for liking either one.

-Luddy

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Re: Logic vs Live

Post by necho » Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:12 am

CR78 wrote:You should also look at Presonus's Studio One or Reaper.
Yes.

Studio One is amazing. And so is Reaper - provided you get the SWS extensions, the Reaper Menus mod and a nice skin!

I'd go for either of them over Logic. (unless you need all the Logic instruments and effects)
_________
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leedsquietman
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Re: Logic vs Live

Post by leedsquietman » Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:15 am

This is one example of how you can be flexible with Reaper, but how plain looking and non noob friendly it is.

Reaverb is Reaper's convolution reverb. Reaper comes with NO impulses (yes, you can download free ones or pay for others).
Image

you have to set up the features you want for the plugin yourself (i.e. LP/HP, normalize, reverse etc).

Compare to Cubase 5's Reverence convolution reverb, which comes with a ton of preset impulses and is already set up as a slick device with adjustable EQ etc.

Image

One Reason why Reaper is such great value is it's lack of inbuilt virtual synths, impulses and sound content.
http://soundcloud.com/umbriel-rising http://www.myspace.com/leedsquietmandemos Live 7.0.18 SUITE, Cubase 5.5.2], Soundforge 9, Dell XPS M1530, 2.2 Ghz C2D, 4GB, Vista Ult SP2, legit plugins a plenty, Alesis IO14.

swishniak
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Re: Logic vs Live

Post by swishniak » Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:25 am

i think live and logic complement each other well. they both have their strengths and weaknesses. . different workflows. i enjoy going back and forth (except for the key commands).

(and i can imagine cubase/reaper/studioOne are ok replacements for logic)

robnotrob
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Re: Logic vs Live

Post by robnotrob » Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:36 am

I moved over to Logic 9 over the last 4 months, best thing I ever did, I use ableton to do my time-stretching and sketches and then the final arrangement in logic. The reverbs, delays & some of the utilities in Logic 9 are truly next level and I've got to admit it's been a lot easy do good mix downs that sound spacious but still have punch aka professional.

I say keep both as they both so different things and work surprisingly well together.

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Re: Logic vs Live

Post by vicz » Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:13 pm

Whenever I try to use Logic for anything that involves midi or audio routing I seem to end up digging around the manual, faq's, forums trying to sort how how to do something that would be simple in Live. The Environment? WTF!

Tarekith
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Re: Logic vs Live

Post by Tarekith » Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:33 pm

Agreed, the routing in Live is by far better and more intuitive than anything else out there.

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Re: Logic vs Live

Post by glitchrock-buddha » Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:15 pm

It's funny to me that Logic was always the king of midi, with not so good audio capabilities, and Live started as an audio tool for loops with no midi. The reason I find this hilarious is because I think their strengths have swapped completely. I much prefer the midi side of things in Ableton (the piano roll ease of use, racks for mdid instruments, midi effects, the midi routing between tracks, easier midi learn, better plug-in support as far as parameter configuration etc.). And I prefer the audio side of Logic (the quickswipe comping, the bounce in place, the timestretch quality, and other general timeline stuff, not to mention the effects). Hence I prefer Logic for traditional multitracking and Live for midi instrument looping type stuff. But I do agree that the audio routing in Live is also much nicer.
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Tarekith
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Re: Logic vs Live

Post by Tarekith » Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:32 pm

Logic's audio editing has definitely gotten better, but I still think Cubase and Studio One are the kings there. No need for a seperate sample editor to directly do actions on the files in the arrange view. Fades, normalize, swap channels, etc. I hate having to dive into Logic's sample editor, it just seems so old school and fiddly to use. Marque editing on the arrange page is really good though.

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