Replicating Analog Oscillator Drift & Temperature Change

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contakt321
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Replicating Analog Oscillator Drift & Temperature Change

Post by contakt321 » Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:17 pm

Question for those of you with VCO "true" analog hardware synths (not virtual analog, not DCO, etc):

Question 1:
How much drift are you getting and how might you go about recreating the effects?
Are both oscillators drifting the same direction?
Is it significant over the course of say a 5 minute performance?

Say you are using a 2 Oscillator VST (let's say Live's Analog), how would you (attempt to) replicate what happens to your VCO analog hardware?
If it just a few cents over the course of a 5 minute track?
Any other ideas for recreating this effect?

Question 2:
I always read about temperature changes can affect the sound of VCO analog hardware. I remember reading an interview w/ some dubtechno guys from Michigan and they said they would leave their synth outside in the winter for an hour and then bring it in and record it and the sound would change after it warmed out. What does that sound like?
How does the temperature change affect the sound? What is it affecting? Oscillators? Filters?

Say you are using a 2 Oscillator VST (let's say Live's Analog), how would you (attempt to) replicate what happens to your VCO analog hardware?
Any ideas for recreating this effect?

Thanks in advance!

JuanSOLO
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Re: Replicating Analog Oscillator Drift & Temperature Change

Post by JuanSOLO » Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:03 pm

Personally, the longer I spend time "replicating" the more I realize it's a mere imitation and I should just use real Analogue gear if thats the sound I am going for, and let digital gear do what it does best and capitalize on that. The drift, or temperature change is such a subtle nuance of random electrical behavior something like Live's Analogue plug is a far cry from it.

My only suggestion would be to experiment with the LFO's and spend time being creative as opposed to fitting a square peg in a round hole.

I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm just sayin.

contakt321
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Re: Replicating Analog Oscillator Drift & Temperature Change

Post by contakt321 » Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:16 pm

Thanks for the unhelpful post :)

I know how to use LFOs, I know to saturate, etc

I am simply curious about drift and temperature change - I am always reading about it but I don't know how exactly it sounds

greenscreens
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Re: Replicating Analog Oscillator Drift & Temperature Change

Post by greenscreens » Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:25 pm

i believe you just buy a synthesizer at this point of uncertainty

:oops: :wink: :oops:

contakt321
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Re: Replicating Analog Oscillator Drift & Temperature Change

Post by contakt321 » Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:37 pm

Thank you also for a useless post.

PS: I do own hardware, thank you.

Wow, foolish of me to ask a question and try to create a discussion about a technique and expect real answers from people w/ experience.

3phase
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Re: Replicating Analog Oscillator Drift & Temperature Change

Post by 3phase » Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:04 pm

forget about temprature changes..thats the part of analog circuit we dont like to emulate and there is no use full fx from it ..its just a detuning of the synth with the changing temprature..

however..yo need to slightly detune your simulation and especiall have different oscillairs differetly scaled...

but just very slightly.. on a analog 2 oscilator synth there is usuall only one key with zero beatig whe you try to tune them the same.. however the beating within the first octave of that key can be less than 0,1 hz.. on a well tuned machine its even in the highest registers not over 2 hz

the minimal drift between the oscs makes any key sounding slightly different.. so your brain can seperate the voices from each other..
it also gives a slight chorus fx we interpretate as fatter sound

in comparison digital synths sound death
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

JuanSOLO
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Re: Replicating Analog Oscillator Drift & Temperature Change

Post by JuanSOLO » Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:23 pm

Your right I posted a fake answer because I have never spent hours/days/weeks/months trying to get Analogue emulations out of my plugs.

I have absolutely no experience with that.

contakt321
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Re: Replicating Analog Oscillator Drift & Temperature Change

Post by contakt321 » Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:33 pm

JuanSOLO wrote:Your right I posted a fake answer because I have never spent hours/days/weeks/months trying to get Analogue emulations out of my plugs.

I have absolutely no experience with that.
Not saying you posted a fake answer - just saying your initial post added precisely nothing to this thread, why post it?

If you have spent hours/days/weeks trying to achieve this, I think your process, success or failure is super relevant to this thread and I would love to hear what you tried and where you ran into a wall.

Sorry if I came across rude.

contakt321
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Re: Replicating Analog Oscillator Drift & Temperature Change

Post by contakt321 » Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:35 pm

3phase wrote: the minimal drift between the oscs makes any key sounding slightly different.. so your brain can seperate the voices from each other..
it also gives a slight chorus fx we interpretate as fatter sound
Your entire post was very interesting, especially this part. It totally makes sense, but I didn't think about that - definitely gives me ideas.

Thanks 3Phase!

JuanSOLO
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Re: Replicating Analog Oscillator Drift & Temperature Change

Post by JuanSOLO » Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:49 pm

contakt321 wrote:
...and expect real answers from people w/ experience.
So specifically, all I have ever done is use LFO type stuff and modulate "pitch with" and "detune" at very slow rates, these days trying maybe a bit of AMP or some kind of grit, maybe a subtle chorus, a or comb, beefed up compressor and filter that or EQ it some more. Or build a few random LFO type devices such as the LineFO M4L device and slowly modulate parameters over time. Maybe even try 2 instances of Analogue in one Instrument Rack and have them half ass modulate each other. Or put and instance of 127 instances of Analogue across keys in an instrument Rack with slowly modulated parameters all offset from each other.

OR buy Reaktor and download some Stephan V. synths. The Raktor comuunity has a whole host of analogue imitations in the UL and some are good but they are still imitations. Maybe Uhe's Zebra synth?

Although I have achieved a few pleasant results doing this sort of thing, my ability to notice how different the nuances from a real analogue synth compared to digital ones skyrocketed, making me regret selling any analogue gear I once owned before the uprising bewilderment and convenience of laptop musicians. For some it's not worth noticing, for me it has become annoying. Hence my purchase of a Korg Poly Six, and hopes of getting more and more Analogue gear to replace the crap I once thought was "good enough."

lasersounds
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Re: Replicating Analog Oscillator Drift & Temperature Change

Post by lasersounds » Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:53 pm

osc drift isnt going to make something not analog sound analog, also, there is a drift setting in analog, but it doesnt make it sound more analog.

the drift is nothing more than a tiny bit of a cent of a semitone, i dont think its gonna make or break your sound.

IMO the most important part of an analog synth is the filter, so if you can run analog through an external real analog filter, it will sound alot better.

JuanSOLO
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Re: Replicating Analog Oscillator Drift & Temperature Change

Post by JuanSOLO » Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:04 pm

If you are wanting subtle variation, another idea would be to put 4 or so "analogue" plugs in an instrument rack and cross fade the instances on a chain. Some how modulate the chain like with M4L. I'm just guessing here, but I have recently discovered Live has a "random" Midi Effect. For whatever reason I have overlooked it since whenever it showed up. Theoretically you might be able to use it 1st in a rack, and put instances on the "Key" instead of the "Chain?" That may totally be a bogus idea, im just guessing. But nevertheless, some idea or combination of such tools would at least give you some kind of slight variation.

3phase
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Re: Replicating Analog Oscillator Drift & Temperature Change

Post by 3phase » Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:17 pm

you cant make filet steak from meatloaf anymore...

thats a fact.. so there never will be a filetsteak simulation that is like the real thing.

however.. you defently can spicy up digital sounds a lot by teaching them some analoge behaviour..
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

contakt321
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Re: Replicating Analog Oscillator Drift & Temperature Change

Post by contakt321 » Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:59 pm

Very cool stuff - thanks for the ideas and the experiences shared.

I think what I was looking to learn was:
1. What the cold to warm thing imparted on the sound
2. How the drift affected things audibly
3. How to recreate

Based on 3Phase's post, it seems like, each key press would have 1 oscillator detuned by a miniscule amount?


@JuanSolo - I hear you re: hardware, I went entirely in the box, and now I am slowly accumulating hardware again - I miss all the imperfections.
@Lasersounds - I am sure these subtle things wont make it sound Analog, I guess I am just looking to understand what happens and also for ideas on super subtle ways to adjust my VSTs to give more character. As for the filter - also another great idea. I have been toying with a Korg Monotron for this purpose, but I think I want something stereo.

Poster
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Re: Replicating Analog Oscillator Drift & Temperature Change

Post by Poster » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:17 pm

contakt321 wrote:I remember reading an interview w/ some dubtechno guys from Michigan and they said they would leave their synth outside in the winter for an hour and then bring it in and record it and the sound would change after it warmed out.
THE most stupid thing one could do.. bringing something cold into a warm atmosphere causes condense.. condense=water.. water+electricity= :evil:

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