Ableton Guitarists

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
kanuck
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Re: Ableton Guitarists

Post by kanuck » Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:48 am

i didn't doubt miking would be better with a decent tube amp like the jtm45. But a practice amp would usually be solid state itself and the only difference between that and something like the pod would be the fact it has speakers. If you were using a nice tube amp live; would you stick it behind the stage somewhere, mic it and send it through ableton that way?

leedsquietman
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Re: Ableton Guitarists

Post by leedsquietman » Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:19 am

Tube amps in good condition are awesome.

However, some solid state amps can be excellent too. I had a Roland Cube 30 which sounded awesome when recorded, as did some Fender solid state amps, such as the M80 chorus my friend has.

And of course, if you ever put up a well recorded real tube amp such as a JCM800 or Orange against an amp sim version, you would really notice the difference.
http://soundcloud.com/umbriel-rising http://www.myspace.com/leedsquietmandemos Live 7.0.18 SUITE, Cubase 5.5.2], Soundforge 9, Dell XPS M1530, 2.2 Ghz C2D, 4GB, Vista Ult SP2, legit plugins a plenty, Alesis IO14.

Homebelly
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Re: Ableton Guitarists

Post by Homebelly » Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:41 am

kanuck wrote:But a practice amp would usually be solid state
Not necessarily.
There are plenty of low wattage tube amps out there.

Orange. Tiny terror
Vox. Night train
Blackstar. HT5
Messa.
MATAMP. Minimat
zvox. nano amp.
Fender.
Marshall.........

All of these companies make low watt tube amps.
Some, like the messa, are two voiced even.
Its important to understand that low watt doesn't mean low volume.
A 50 watt amp is not half as loud as a 100 watt amp.
What you get is lower head room.
So, where as a non master volume 100 watt amp will saturate with its channel volume at about 8, a 50 watt will give you the same tone at about 5.
Because the amp is saturating and compressing it gives the illusion that it is louder compared to a clean amp at the same volume if measured in actual dB's.
So, if you want a quite amp for small stages, choose a 30 to 50 watt amp and only run it with the volume open to the point just before break up.
The JTM45 is a 30 watt amp. If i run it with out bridging the inputs on 3 or 4 i get a crystal clear clean tone that i can push over the edge with a distortion pedal adding a small amount of extra gain. Alternatively i can run the amp on 5 or 6 and wind the volume pot back on my guitar for a clean tone, and wind it back up for a boost.
I can do all of this, and still be able to talk to some one with out shouting and still be heard.
If i turn the amp up above 6 or 7 it starts to saturate into a creamy compressed and dynamic over drive. It also starts to sustain and create feedback and also increases in volume about 30dB. This is where the isolation box comes it because it shaves off about 30dB of sound.

The wattage measurement in a tube amp is measuring how much input power is being generated before the out put stage.
This figure is an indication of what point the amp will distort. So a 30 watt amp will distort earlier than a 50 watt, and so on.
However, they will all be about the same volume give or take a couple of dB's.
In a real tube amp this is what produces the compression, saturation and clean head room that makes a real tube amp so dynamic.
The harder you hit the strings, the more wattage is produced at the input and the more compression is created as the head room is used up and distortion/saturation is produced. This is where the modelers all start to fail as they are not very good at modeling this aspect. They all only seem to be able to model this phenomenon in incremental steps.

I have both Guitar rig and amplitube on my computers and i have owned most of the pods since version 1.
All of these tools produce great clean tones and great distortion/over drive tones.
But none of them are able to accurately model the dynamic interplay of the energy produced by the guitar, and how that energy is interpreted by every stage of the amp to the speakers.
15" 2.4 MBP/Live/Sampler/Operator/ Home made Dumble clone/Two Strats/One Jazz Bass.
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kanuck
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Re: Ableton Guitarists

Post by kanuck » Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:58 am

well there's a difference between a "practice" amp and a "low-wattage" amp. I know what you mean though.. I think it's like 50 watts is twice as loud as a 5 watt amp. Curious then.. if you were playing live would you mic your amp and send it through to ableton? split it? etc.?

Homebelly
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Re: Ableton Guitarists

Post by Homebelly » Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:16 am

When i was playing out using big ass amps i did a couple of things.
I played with perspex screens in front of my speakers...
I also ran my main amp into a load box, them re-amped that into a power amp to feed the speakers.
I haven't played out in years, but i am half assed working on a set up that will let me work on some kind of ambient guitar based looping thing.
To do this i will run my amp into the isolation box, then run the mic out into live on my laptop and control the whole mess with foot switches and some kind of tactile APC-like controller.
I'm also working on a live blues band type set up with the JTM running into a 2X12.
But that situation doesn't need to be worried about bleed or volume.
And any case, the JTM45 sounds like angels singing with killing saturation and sustain at a very reasonable volume.
15" 2.4 MBP/Live/Sampler/Operator/ Home made Dumble clone/Two Strats/One Jazz Bass.
Come and visit any time= Soundcloud

Piplodocus
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Re: Ableton Guitarists

Post by Piplodocus » Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:39 am

I used to have the 1 Watt Z-Vex Nano head mentioned above. It was pretty damn loud! I could never play it late in the evening! It does the classic turned-up-to-11 Marshall Power tube (rather than preamp tube) distortion thing very well indeed. I kinda use more channels, changes, and heavier sounds too though, so sold it in the end since I always ended up playing my Diezel.

I mic my Diezel Herbert, which tends to sound good at low volumes, even though it's STUPIDLY loud. It's just about getting that sensitive volume knob between nothing and loud!

Like the rest of my songs it's not finished, but close... http://soundcloud.com/elviswhistlehoof

(Done with the Diezel+Marshall 1960A Cab, a RodeNT-2 mic, MOTU 828mk3, Ableton Suite (with session drums/operator), an old Novation Super Bass Station, and my mouth!)
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Mac OSX: 10.8.2, Live Suite: 9.0.2 (64-bit) Live user since:v5 (Above now has an APC40, 8GB RAM and a Diezel 212F Cab but currently too lazy to re-draw it all)

UKRuss
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Re: Ableton Guitarists

Post by UKRuss » Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:01 am

I just plug in to whatever is on offer and play, never got emotional about guitars/amps any of that really. I'm a Guitar Rig user now and have a little Marshall for practice but other than that, can't be arsed with any of the faffing about.

Used a lovely 60w valve amp last night though...name escapes me, has the input power gauge on the front of the amp. Lovely sound.

I prefer the flexibility of software even if the compromise on tone is obvious to some, believe me it's transparent to most.

Here's me latest opus with mandolin, electric and acoustic layers, used the partner instrument fibes drum kit too. All Live native and guitar rig plus TRacks mastering.

Aga Jari Bus Ride

auron
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Re: Ableton Guitarists

Post by auron » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:45 pm

I really enjoy my ableton guitar setup.

My guitar goes through a tube preamp into a firewire interface. I have a midi foot pedalboard, sound is modeled using ableton and I output to a full frequency pa. traditional amp/cab is gone.

In a related topic, I tried out amplitube and attempted to match the sound using ableton's native amp/cab. Ableton's native effects were very close with some customization, but I don't know what I am doing enough to get it exactly.

However in theory couldn't you get equal results with ableton's amp/cab? As a VST amplitube has a slight latency when you use the highest settings but the presets are really great.
Last edited by auron on Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fcarroll
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Re: Ableton Guitarists

Post by fcarroll » Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:38 pm

What would be the best type of guitar for ambient clean sounds, using reverb, echo etc.
iMac, MacBook Pro, Ableton Live 8 Suite,Ableton PUSH Komplete 8, Logic Studio,Launchpad x 2, iPad (Lemur), M-Audio Keystudio, Akai MPD18, ...

Pasha
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Re: Ableton Guitarists

Post by Pasha » Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:55 pm

I use my 20 years old Fender Strat Plus, through a Mixer and then into a low latency Audio interface (FC202A).
Lately I'm experimenting with Pads made with my guitar only and Ableton Live Suite effects. With the addition
of Zebrify I was able to get a reasonably good synth sound, GR300 style.
Ableton Live rules even for sound design for us guitarist.

- Best
- Pasha
Apple Desktop / Laptop
Live 9 Suite,Zebra 2.6,Guitar, Bass, VG99, JV1010 and some controllers
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anybody human
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Re: Ableton Guitarists

Post by anybody human » Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:55 pm

am wrote:part of an improvised live processed guitar and vocals, live + maschine... on youtube...

right here
Sounds great! Really cool.

Homebelly
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Re: Ableton Guitarists

Post by Homebelly » Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:55 pm

fcarroll wrote:What would be the best type of guitar for ambient clean sounds, using reverb, echo etc.
The one you already have...

I'm using a strat, Robin Guthrie uses a PRS custom, Robert Fripp uses a Les Paul..
Use what ever you have...

Along with the reverbs and delay's, a volume pedal is also very handy and a good quality stomp compressor also helps.
I use a pigtronix philosophers tone, but that just my preference.
About the only pedals i use after that are distortion/fuzz pedals, all the time and modulation based effects happen in live or logic.
check out my soundcloud link to hear a couple of all guitar textural stuff.
15" 2.4 MBP/Live/Sampler/Operator/ Home made Dumble clone/Two Strats/One Jazz Bass.
Come and visit any time= Soundcloud

anybody human
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Re: Ableton Guitarists

Post by anybody human » Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:02 pm

UKRuss wrote:I just plug in to whatever is on offer and play, never got emotional about guitars/amps any of that really. I'm a Guitar Rig user now and have a little Marshall for practice but other than that, can't be arsed with any of the faffing about.

Used a lovely 60w valve amp last night though...name escapes me, has the input power gauge on the front of the amp. Lovely sound.

I prefer the flexibility of software even if the compromise on tone is obvious to some, believe me it's transparent to most.

Here's me latest opus with mandolin, electric and acoustic layers, used the partner instrument fibes drum kit too. All Live native and guitar rig plus TRacks mastering.

Aga Jari Bus Ride
IMO this is mixed extremely well. Fantastic job. Everything sounds defined and has it's own space even though there are a quite a few things going on. Things are eq'd and panned really well. To my ears, each element sounds punchy in the same way as the overall whole which gives it a streamlined feel. Good use of compression I'm guessing. Really, really cohesive mix. Very impressive.

anybody human
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Re: Ableton Guitarists

Post by anybody human » Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:09 pm

Homebelly wrote:
fcarroll wrote:What would be the best type of guitar for ambient clean sounds, using reverb, echo etc.
The one you already have...

I'm using a strat, Robin Guthrie uses a PRS custom, Robert Fripp uses a Les Paul..
Use what ever you have...

Along with the reverbs and delay's, a volume pedal is also very handy and a good quality stomp compressor also helps.
I use a pigtronix philosophers tone, but that just my preference.
About the only pedals i use after that are distortion/fuzz pedals, all the time and modulation based effects happen in live or logic.
check out my soundcloud link to hear a couple of all guitar textural stuff.
That sounds great too! Follow u on Soundcloud now (Make Ballet) so I'll look forward to hearing more stuff. F-ck, I thought all you guys were aimless, never finish a song, procrastinators like me. I've really got to get busy. Thanks for the inspiration guys. It's nice to hear some of your music. I'm always afraid of clicking on sigs for fear of hearing predictable by the numbers dance music:) Lesson learned.

Edit: I agree use whatever guitar you've already got, that'll work fine. It does seem like Strats work good for ambient stuff (versatile & the thin-ness works well for layering on effects), but on the other hand as you say Fripp use a Les Paul so... @ fcarroll: just use what you got and that'll be your sound.

genshi
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Re: Ableton Guitarists

Post by genshi » Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:02 am

Nice thread going here. I've actually been away from guitar for awhile and am just now getting back into it. This is a mellow little track I did today (still a work-in-progress); I was sort of going for a Boards Of Canada feel, but with mostly guitars:

http://soundcloud.com/genshi/shouchu-preview-01

Comments appreciated. Headphones required.

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