AUTOMATION TO SESSION has been asked since 2002 8 YEARS!!!

[Machinesworking]

Personally I'm convinced there are deep problems with writing automation to Session View.
I just don't think Ableton is bullheaded enough to ignore the #1 feature request for 10 years?
My guess is there's no way to stop certain bugs from happening, maybe it's a third party AU/VST issue, maybe not?
Again, I truly do not believe that Ableton want to see this thread every three months or so.

Hopefully they do figure out how to implement it, and I think it's smart to remind them that we want it, but I wouldn't say they're ignoring our desire for it.

[mholloway]

the Abes used to post in these threads regularly, explaining precisely what Machinesworking is saying above -- it has to do with deep-level groundwork programming stuff based on the 'foundations' or whatever of the whole program; i'm probably mangling what they said but point is, they said it's a huge technical venture and made the point it wasn't being ignored.

I'm too lazy to search myself, but trust me, check back when Henke actually posted here -- thinking 'round the release time of version 8 -- you'll find it.

-M

[andydes]

Which is why several people on this thread are talking about a complete rewrite.

It’s also just possible that such work might have been going on during Ableton’s “ongoing quality effort”. After all, working on the core program isn’t really working on new features, but it might just happen to allow more features.

Would an innovative company like Ableton really be doing nothing more than patching up holes for that long? Surely they would have kept a couple of people working on future versions?

[djod]

Well maybe the addition of vst in Maschine will wake them up.
Automation is bloody easy and wicked fast in Maschine.
The concept of GroupClips could make the transition happen in Live. http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=141848
Maybe they have a better solution, but it is possible, without loosing backward compatibility.
It would also open the door to some new ways of working in session view.

I say time for a rewrite

Yes, but you forget that one of the most crucial functionalities that Maschine still lacks is song automation... You can only automate parameters in a pattern level

In Maschine clip automation equals song automation, why would I need two automation systems for one parameter. There are some nice tricks that can be done with it, but i.m.h.o. the benefits really don't outweigh the problems. Please rewrite!!

Also when, in Live, I do Automate a Midi CC connected internally to a VST or AU and record the modulation in to the clip. If I move the knob again, the automation after that point gets reset, this really sucks and makes this workaround useless. It should at least use a "touch mode" which adds the values only where the modulation is and leave the rest as is. This is how it works in Maschine and that is how it should work. Also the automation ring around the knob in Maschine work perfect and fast. Please implement that also

[fx23]

I'm too lazy to search myself, but trust me, check back when Henke actually posted here -- thinking 'round the release time of version 8 -- you'll find it.

I was there when abes first answered about that, that was years ago, i would say around L5. And yes to summup it was said it was a huge technical complex stuff affecting the deep layerz of live, that would need a complete rewrite at the time , and what seem to bother them more was the backward compatibility, involved in lot of partnerships/customerz.

sooo what? we sit on automation to session? they let us speculate for years it will ever come one day?

No, they have to rewrite, they should have done it a long time ago, before implementing MFL or bridge or other stuff imo, now that will only make the task harder, or been used as a lame escuse to not rewrite.

this rewrite HAS to occur, automation to session simply can't be bypassed, that's live nb1
flaw since start and would boost the soft to unbeilievable levels, make it work as it always should have in a natural way.

they are one of the, if not the, biggest audio daw dev team, with huge ressources. They work on their soft from 10 years.
sure it's a hard, painful and long job, it will freeze things for a while, need cash drop and activate brain cellz, but that's sooooo necessary for the long term.
I secretly hope the fact L8 was so buggy and L9 is taking so long beeing not yet announced maybe mean
they started the job, but im probably dreaming too much, as as said they just implemented M4L.

anyway they can't keep on patching on a 10 years old flawed core. where is it going to end if they keep that logic? Lot's of lonf time ableton users including me feel Live was and is getting worst and worse since V5, the basis becoming less and less stable, with more and more bugz and the most important,

still no automation to session = still not the logic workflow it should have always had.

REWRITE THE WHOLE HISTORY, correcting 10 years learnt errors.

[Klinke]

still no automation to session = still not the logic workflow it should have always had.

REWRITE THE WHOLE HISTORY, correcting 10 years learnt errors.

+1!!!!

[Tweaking Knobs]

still no automation to session = still not the logic workflow it should have always had.

REWRITE THE WHOLE HISTORY, correcting 10 years learnt errors.

+1!!!!

+1

[fisto]

also interesting is, that you don't hear a single word from the Abes since weeks.
Noticed how long the 8.22 beta is there and no release yet. To me it seems that either they are working hard in the background, or they will start something new and let Live die.

Really I think it is a seriuos situation for the Abes. They just keep bringing partner-instruments and merchandise-stuff, but no development of their real product. WTF!! They give a fuck about their users, they just keep looking for new kid-customers who want to make music with other people's music, haha!!

I'm just waiting for my Sonar X1 box, so happy that I can finally leave this desert

[oddstep]

The last three of versions of live have had some fundamental improvements to the interface and flow of information through the software, most of these are implementations of the changes that happened in 6 (device racks, python control scripts). The opening of the software to external programs (bridge, MFL) is a pretty massive development, but it has no concrete outcome for people who don't use those other programs. At the end of the day I can't understand why anyone will upgrade to nine unless stuff like session automation is fixed. Can there be any effects and simulations left to include into Live. An aas saxophone emulator?

[8O]

also interesting is, that you don't hear a single word from the Abes since weeks.

This time of year, there are also many Christmas markets in Berlin, with stalls selling Absinthe-Gluehwein. Coincidence?

[fx23]

edit: self censored

re-edit, as post occured while i censored myself, repost:

they were cerainly high on absynth or dmt to invent a patern session system where anything can be rec expect knobs tweaks..
it's like inventing a ferrari without breaks imo.

[oddstep]

Naah, you would have seen the problems immediately on dmt. A sentient vortex the size of the universe would explain the importance of a totally integrated controller paradigm through a language composed purely of 4 dimensional images and changes in body temperature.

Its a regretable decision. Did clip envelopes exist before midi control in Live?

[fx23]

yeh you are right, some more destructive stuff then, maybe ketamine

i feel the pb is'nt midi related, it's more that they linked modulations to arrange,instead of self contained in the clips.
then midi would be driven to one or the other easily.

now my biggest wish would be to have an explain on the reasons of such choice, because i really
can't see a single advantage of having chosen that way. maybe im not high enough actually...

[timothyallan]

Naah, you would have seen the problems immediately on dmt. A sentient vortex the size of the universe would explain the importance of a totally integrated controller paradigm through a language composed purely of 4 dimensional images and changes in body temperature.

This is awesome.

[alex.the.forge]

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1466

so... that's now 8 f::!^g years it has been requested, yes 8 years we wait patiently next version to see it's still not there.
..

I think you could probably argue that particular thread you linked was answered with clip envelopes

The problem is the way clip envelopes were implemented - they were awesome at the time, but it didn't take us long to work out you couldn't record it in and what a bummer that was

…. It's a workflow change that affects the entire product and the way that their current user base works with Live as a program. As the user base grows (which it has exponentially in the past few years), the change becomes harder to implement without upsetting a larger portion of those users…..

I've never thought of it as a problem from the point of view of the users - I always hoped they'd put in a button "relative/absolute" that allows you to choose on clip level which will handle the automation…. if they did that it would mean the default setting could be relative and it would be exactly as it is now…

but my guess is something like that would have been too big to add in 2003…. maybe not so now? Who knows….

Thing is I have sat at a table with them explaining in detail why they couldn't do this, and I didn't really understand then and still really don't now…. I guess we just have to accept they would do it if they could

I have to say the fact Live 9 is taking so much longer than previous versions makes me feel a little hopeful that they will get a bit more interesting this time and make more out of their session view. Group clips is another obvious next step IMO.

Sometimes it's really incredible to me that they launched this amazing concept in 2001, then steadily started turning it into another Linear DAW and almost completely forgot about that amazing concept. I guess that strategy worked for them though, because they are huge now by comparison.

But clips should be able to launch all out nuclear war by 2010…. maybe if you're good at Max they can do amazing shit, but to me that is the wrong way to go about it. Normal users who haven't got a clue about programming should have access to this shit.

The total irony is there have been a number of decisions they have made over time where they deprived us of something they considered "unsafe" that might confuse average users, then their solution is to add something as complicated as Max for Live.

Another irony is that it took a 3rd party user to make more out of clips: http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=153113