Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
fx23
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by fx23 » Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:46 pm

3phaze, while i really often agree with you against the overall concessus, it's true you should try to be a bit smarter,
, have a little descent respect for other users, really, hoffman came quite cool, you're certainly pissed off, but try to remain social a minimum, no?.

back on topic live is not the most accurate and cleanest tool for multitrack mixing on several points , you and some others
know or let's say feel that already from a while(unwanted flam fanboys/haters Nth war here). Maybe indeed consider it as a giant primitives block creative tool and rewire or bounce to your usual daw if really need critical precise stuff.

If you re accepting this concept then live can/could do a geat job. i say 'could' because the main problem still is and forever will remain imo the automation to session wich prevent us from quick build those blocks as clips, that would be so more faster and logical/intutiv workflow and then quick test arrange in session or arrang before bouncing. but im surprised i don't see you often be concerned about that.. do you only work in arrange?

while i truely love live, for it's original 'allin one' apparence, with time i finally find it's not as good as other daw to be be an equivalent good finalizer/multi mixer, on the daw aspect, and on other live/workflow side, the automations to sesion miss fu cks half of the session concept. hpefully one concept is working ok it to play the session and rec to arrangement. But with the loss
of autom to session it's pricey. it was ok and exciting to discover sucha tool in my case with V4 or 5, but here were getting at 9 and see it's still the same half concepts, and you still cannot transparent move from one to other. i do really feel a rewrite has to come to save us otherwise we stay in half concepts forever.

despite this drastic mess, it's still the most workable daw, isn't it? otherwise we wouldn't use it anyamore..

massenmedium
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by massenmedium » Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:50 pm

IN years to come people will be nostalgic for the sound of the BHD and it will become imbued with retro cool. Old versions of Live and operating systems to run it on will be sought out.

stringtapper
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by stringtapper » Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:00 pm

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Unsound Designer

fx23
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by fx23 » Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:01 pm

lol good one

MPGK
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by MPGK » Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:31 pm

massenmedium wrote:IN years to come people will be nostalgic for the sound of the BHD and it will become imbued with retro cool. Old versions of Live and operating systems to run it on will be sought out.
And we will all learn to trust our 25 years trained soundengineer ears.

3phase
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by 3phase » Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:17 am

fx23 wrote:3phaze, while i really often agree with you against the overall concessus, it's true you should try to be a bit smarter,
, have a little descent respect for other users, really, hoffman came quite cool, you're certainly pissed off, but try to remain social a minimum, no?.
mr hoffman was so often question my competence and opinions in the past that i was a bit shocked to hear such bullshit from him.. even thought that he was an ablton employe in the past thanks to his all knowing habitus..
so when one is not even aware of the samplerate conversion involved in all warping and sampling playbacks of ableton life i cant take the person serious regarding the topic anymore..
back on topic live is not the most accurate and cleanest tool for multitrack mixing on several points , you and some others
know or let's say feel that already from a while(unwanted flam fanboys/haters Nth war here). Maybe indeed consider it as a giant primitives block creative tool and rewire or bounce to your usual daw if really need critical precise stuff.
thats exactly how we do it since many years,, and regardless to all ableton propaganda regarding having the same audioquality as the others it remains like that. I really hate tghis missleading advertizment campaigns especially when the progress in the audio quality makes it difficult to spot the iregularitys..especially when its not documeted that tempochanges screw the whole transparent audio scenario pointed out in theire "audio fact " sheet.. as the midi fact sheet its just a promotional text..
please remember here that the midi fact sheet wants to sell us an iferior performance as natural given daw prinzip... other daws never had the problems on the midi side live had in the begining..

remeber? the first midi versions had quantisation allways on because the incoming mididata was placed erratic arround the timeline....

problem is that one really cant trust ableton statements.. lokking back over the years that has been prooven many times.. see the latest introduction of new features like serato bridge before all bugs was solved...
If you re accepting this concept then live can/could do a geat job. i say 'could' because the main problem still is and forever will remain imo the automation to session wich prevent us from quick build those blocks as clips, that would be so more faster and logical/intutiv workflow and then quick test arrange in session or arrang before bouncing. but im surprised i don't see you often be concerned about that.. do you only work in arrange?
i usually never work in lives arrange when i can avoid it..
while i truely love live, for it's original 'allin one' apparence, with time i finally find it's not as good as other daw to be be an equivalent good finalizer/multi mixer, on the daw aspect, and on other live/workflow side, the automations to sesion miss fu cks half of the session concept. hpefully one concept is working ok it to play the session and rec to arrangement. But with the loss
of autom to session it's pricey. it was ok and exciting to discover sucha tool in my case with V4 or 5, but here were getting at 9 and see it's still the same half concepts, and you still cannot transparent move from one to other. i do really feel a rewrite has to come to save us otherwise we stay in half concepts forever.

despite this drastic mess, it's still the most workable daw, isn't it? otherwise we wouldn't use it anyamore..
the program has its strength on stage..as least up to the moment it turned in to gig crashing risk..
the remote controlability is unmatched and you have pattern based sequenciung..thats necessary to allow to freely arrage on stage..and what else shall you really do when performing electronic music live?

turning filter knobs? the dj´s have started to do this aswell years ago..

However even in this regard live could be much better .the creation of content live on stage is with an good ol 303 easier than with ableton life... cosidering that a 303 is not even supposed to be set to write mode while running this is a hard statement..but its true.. i do this often on stage to rewrite 303 lines while running..the handling of te 303 allows that.. fiddeling in the non overview midi editor of life doesent allow that, and regarding the looper plug in?

sorry.. my age old lexicon jamman is much easier to operate.. and. instead making it more complikated than any hardware looper they should have made it more capabel by allowing prerecording..

anyway.. the development of live is into serato bridges..api access..max integration..all this nerd stuff..

as daw its way behind still and as life tool it dont has seen real developement since the first days of its exsistance.. except more controler support.. but than again..the implemetation of theire own dedicated controlers is again just half developed.. grouptracks are missing functionality at any corner..no remote able expand/ fold... no name able clips etc...

And than all the weak syncing.. errors in all delartments there..
ok i stop, the list is too long.. when you see what kind of music software single persons have written in the past in the cause of 5 years and what ableton has achived in 10 with a team...

either they intentionaly slow down development to have more upgrade cycles.. or..
ok ..nobody is perfect.. as said earlier .. i declare herwith that i officially dont expect live to be my main daw anymore.. i ve enough.. bug solved..bug back..bug solved..other bug emerges.. function missing? function deliverd after 3 years half working.. waiting for next year.. function delivered with bug..waiting for update.

enough with this.. its just that soemone got used to work with live and in my personal statistics? i ve released way more records with the aid of other daw´s.. actually since working with live ive hundrets of scteches but no finished tracks.. its really good in making sketches and mooving to something else without finishing the one you was working on.and because its not easy to work in multipple instances you are somehow sealed from your previous work.. ok.. my fault.. but somhow life supports the scetch way better than the quick way to the final production.. from a certain point evrything you do needs 3 times more moves and zooming and collapsing and back than on any other daw.. protols is compared to live realy fast for the last production state for example.

i am not so sure anymore wether this porgram works like a drug that is doing more bad than good on the long run..

so good bye fanbopys..have fun with your rectivied rainers..

my beta test is over..
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

timothyallan
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by timothyallan » Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:33 am

ciao!

fishmonkey
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by fishmonkey » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:09 am

davepermen wrote:
3phase wrote:sorry guys..i ve taken the toy too serious.. as i ve taken some of you too serious.. the stupid questions of mr hoffman regarding SRC was some kind of outing somehow :lol:
so will you leave now and go to "serious business"?

sample rate conversion and warping are different things. i'm interested why you actually use different sample rates at all. all my audio is the same sample rate and bitrate, so no need to ever have sample rate conversion EVER triggered. warping, on the other hand, is used quite often. namely when ever there are speed differences.

but of course, it's all not like that and you're right, and we're all stupid.
despite the fact that 3phase is being unnecessarily rude and cranky, he is completely correct that warping necessarily involves some kind of SRC.

after all, warping involves squeezing or stretching a certain number of samples into a different amount of time; you end up with either too many or too few samples per second, and that needs to be accounted for somehow. in fact, it is a much trickier kind of fluid SRC that is required.

fx23
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by fx23 » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:18 am

will wait a bit and see what they bring with L9.., with that long wait and L8joke i do hope they corrected the path.
.. actually since working with live ive hundrets of scteches but no finished tracks.. its really good in making sketches and mooving to something else without finishing the one you was working on
im often in same constant sketchs scenarios, and soooo pissed of waiting in the wind that damned £;:session autom!;
that would at least make those sketchs faster and easier to motivate for a cool arrange then.

but one must admit it's hard to find daw alternatives, once you tasted the session..even if it's half working.that's the pb...

I do push my hopes on NI, if they keep up and create a full daw clever workflow oriented as it seems they
started, it might become a serious ableton alternative in one or two years, and that will be a much more interesting game then $,
..when they ll make a full daw with all the natural workflow, sound quality and all their sounds and vst package stuff for
a fraction of Live and suite cost, Live could really be outsided if keeping same way, not to speak about the hardware that will come into and the 'integration' . In fact they just restarted entire full clever concepts, not half messed concepts while
abes didn't took time to reconsider and clean their draft, that had all the original concepts to be so shiny.
anyway.. the development of live is into serato bridges..api access..max integration..all this nerd stuff..
the M4L / bridge dev certainly created a part of the temp L8mess. Maybe things could go faster back on live core now,..
..Or maybe they will have to fix tons of m4l and serato bugz on top of L8 ones and will delegate to get some 3rd party stuff.
they should have rewrite the core clean BEFORE this mess anyway.. Now they will be certainly even more ermetic to rewrite. booth doesn't seem to be commercial and technical success by the way...I was especting we would get tons of cool free possible running devices. it's far from being that actually. and serato is kind of new half concept to add on list.
when you see what kind of music software single persons have written in the past in the cause of 5 years and what ableton has achived in 10 with a team...
true. since 2 years i slowly moved to usine and i was and am still blasted out by what this independant dev man working ALONE is able to provide in montly updates. on the forum i saw a sugg thread, reminds me the tons of useless posts regarding autom i did here. But since then the guy implemented 80 percent of my requests, or other users request. when you ask him something. first he answers you personally,(i can understand ableton can't, but there could be much more issues status statement). then you come back 3 weeks later and the feature is implemented, and in a way more clever than you would have thought yourself about.he is freaking genius. he rewrote half of the soft in 6 months. and when you see how deep usine goes im not sure ableton code is really much bigger, and hey, he is ALONE, while how many are they at ableton HQ? it's probably the bigger existing daw team with the most ressource actually. by comparaison we would be at live 25 with 5 major rewrites if they worked twice as fast as him, really.
so WTF do they do all day during 10 years to not find time to rewrite or find solution for this insane so requested flaw fix?
neither to midi sync two live instances?
we are probably more than 10K users having requested that ;,! SESSION AUTOMATION during 8 looong f;!g years to still not have seen any little tiny move or attempt, year official round-up, around this. that's really insane and somehow unbeleivable.

sadly usine cannot be as user friendly as beeing a full modular totally different concept, and he cannot offers luxury of rewire
as rewire is pricey licensed, otherwise that's a long time i would have leave the boat to full usine and not booth.

Abes did right untill L5, then they should have rewrite to correct that enormous design issue but they didn't. drastic error.
'oh yeah that's so fun' to add a relative tweak over a presequenced automation, that gives you the feeling of playing live for 5min.then you spend you're time reseting parameters to full scale to be able to modulate them right. that would be cool, if they
hadn't chosen that OVER the ability to rec direct absolute midi CC to clips and by the way allow a transparent move session/arrangement. what a silly idea really. silly idea are human, right, but clever people do correct them and don't bypass.
they do know from start it's a silly idea, but they ve chosen to not correct it, cause that was 'hard'.wow
now it's too late and that's mess added on mess.

I give L9 a last shot. if no automation to session, then tchao' iw ill have wait patiently 8 years for nothing. enough.
Last edited by fx23 on Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

hoffman2k
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by hoffman2k » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:30 am

fishmonkey wrote:
davepermen wrote:
3phase wrote:sorry guys..i ve taken the toy too serious.. as i ve taken some of you too serious.. the stupid questions of mr hoffman regarding SRC was some kind of outing somehow :lol:
so will you leave now and go to "serious business"?

sample rate conversion and warping are different things. i'm interested why you actually use different sample rates at all. all my audio is the same sample rate and bitrate, so no need to ever have sample rate conversion EVER triggered. warping, on the other hand, is used quite often. namely when ever there are speed differences.

but of course, it's all not like that and you're right, and we're all stupid.
despite the fact that 3phase is being unnecessarily rude and cranky, he is completely correct that warping necessarily involves some kind of SRC.

after all, warping involves squeezing or stretching a certain number of samples into a different amount of time; you end up with either too many or too few samples per second, and that needs to be accounted for somehow. in fact, it is a much trickier kind of fluid SRC that is required.
But how do you attribute SRC as the cause of the problem? SRC issues usually sound obvious. Live should put all samples at the same samplerate, is that the SRC issue? Warping reads grains of the sample, SRC already happened by then and issues should be noticeable in the form of sped up or slowed down sounds.
I'll gladly be corrected if wrong, but grains of a warped sample are still played back at the project sample rate. So there is no SRC during the warping process.

leedsquietman
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by leedsquietman » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:41 am

It's all very simple.

If you believe Live is not satisfactory as a studio tool or as a mixing or mastering environment, either use it solely for Live performance, or sell your license.

Pointing out issues you're having is not changing anything in the program, and what is upsetting you is water off a duck's back for a lot of users who are content with the program, some of whom also have 25 years or more recording/music/production experience. Yes, maybe wait until L9, but in the meantime, accept L8 as it is, flaws and all.

In the meantime, echoing the same points over and over again is a waste of your time and certainly a waste of internet bandwidth and other forumites time - the first time you made the point was sufficient, but revisiting things a dozen or more times is way too much. Ableton are not listening anymore - they offered to visit you and troubleshoot your studio situation but you declined that, which does not add to your credibility and gives little incentive for Ableton to want to hear you, even when you have valid arguments. Most people on this forum will take Hoffman2k's opinions over yours, you are rapidly descending into Timur territory as far as most people are concerned and that guy was banned for actually ranting less than you ! (unless you are the same person of course, reinvented).

Let's put it this way. Even if you're right about certain issues, the majority of Live users (rank amateurs obviously), don't CARE. Otherwise it would be more than a handful of people complaining and something would be getting done. If I was bitching and moaning every day for years and being ignored, (even on pertinent subjects to improve a situation) I would cut my losses and move on. I think you need to move on, or carry on as you are and Ableton will move you on, as they did Timur.
http://soundcloud.com/umbriel-rising http://www.myspace.com/leedsquietmandemos Live 7.0.18 SUITE, Cubase 5.5.2], Soundforge 9, Dell XPS M1530, 2.2 Ghz C2D, 4GB, Vista Ult SP2, legit plugins a plenty, Alesis IO14.

fishmonkey
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by fishmonkey » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:53 am

hoffman2k wrote:
fishmonkey wrote: despite the fact that 3phase is being unnecessarily rude and cranky, he is completely correct that warping necessarily involves some kind of SRC.

after all, warping involves squeezing or stretching a certain number of samples into a different amount of time; you end up with either too many or too few samples per second, and that needs to be accounted for somehow. in fact, it is a much trickier kind of fluid SRC that is required.
But how do you attribute SRC as the cause of the problem? SRC issues usually sound obvious. Live should put all samples at the same samplerate, is that the SRC issue? Warping reads grains of the sample, SRC already happened by then and issues should be noticeable in the form of sped up or slowed down sounds.
I'll gladly be corrected if wrong, but grains of a warped sample are still played back at the project sample rate. So there is no SRC during the warping process.
i have no idea if it is the cause of 3phase's issue, however the point stands that warping involves on the fly sample rate shenanigans, which is partly why it in general degrades the audio. there has to be an implicit sample rate conversion when warping.

if your grain size is 10ms, then a single grain at 44.1kHz is 441 samples long. when you then warp the audio, the samples in that grain no longer match the project sample rate.

massenmedium
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by massenmedium » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:11 am

And further to that, doesn't he say he's using Repitch mode? Which presumably is based entirely on SRC...

massenmedium
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by massenmedium » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:15 am

Hoffman2k - no, SRC problems don't show up as sped-up or slowed-down sounds. That would just be a SR error, so to speak. Sample Rate Conversion leads to digital artefacts, more or less noticeable depending on the quality of the conversion and the type of material. What 3phase is claiming is that this is happening in instances when technically there should be no need for it, leading to unnecessary degradation of audio quality.

massenmedium
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by massenmedium » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:18 am

Most of us here don't know exactly what happens inside Live, but pointing out that there might be a simple error in the way stuff is handled could be valuable to the developers.

I don't see it as one person complaining about something that only affects him. If there's an issue or something that could be improved that potentially helps anyone using the program.

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