Who uses presets?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
davepermen
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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by davepermen » Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:25 pm

3phase wrote:you tolerate crashbugs too.. that is your overly generous personality but wont change any rules regarding music production out there.
no i don't. as i don't tolerate people moaning about them but not accepting help. like you.
as often with native social rules they are not easy to get for foreigners..

so people that are foreigners for electronic music production dont really see the specific rules in the beginning. They are not painted on the walls or printed in the manual.. its style specific aural traditions you only get when you are part of a musical scene.

Its funny that people so easy adapt to rules where to set breaks and how to make the xy style bla bla but are totaly ignorant for rules regarding coolness...
Just all justified by the goal to have a finsihed track with the most little personal effort.

Preset sounds.. preset arrangement ..preset style.. ?

when your music fits that description you know how to call it.
as said, not using presets myself, or samples, much, as i somehow consider it cheating. but i don't consider it lame, hearing all the non-lame creative stuff created out of it.

else, buying a Stradivarius would be considered lame, too. that's just using a preset, too.
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Wunjo
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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by Wunjo » Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:36 pm

I think there are two kinds of people who play pianos/keyboards. You have a traditional keyboardist that plays a keyboard- an instrument with sampled sounds such as organs, pianos, strings, etc.. for music production, bands, church, recreation and then you have synthesists who generally also have education in traditional piano playing and music theory but are also creative in the arts of synthesis and view the process of getting their timbre for the sound in a whole other perspective than the traditional player. The synthesist doesn't necessarily focus on "what" the are playing but more on "how" it sounds, if that makes sense. Btw, this is only my humble opinion and I think that if a sound is good for a song then use it. People have been sampling older music for years and it serves as a backbone for a ridiculous amount of music out there.

Arguing about using presets in synthesized electronic music is kind of like DJs talking shit about not using traditional vinyl records and "cheating" by using software like traktor when a DJ in the end is only playing someone else's music so I think it's kind of silly to talk about it like that. Music is tuned vibrations and it can get as creative as you will let it.
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3phase
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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by 3phase » Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:58 pm

davepermen wrote:
else, buying a Stradivarius would be considered lame, too. that's just using a preset, too.
? sorry man .an instrument in itself is no preset. thats a stupid thing to say

a tsrdivary wont deliver a good string sound in your hands so ther is no inbuild preset sound

you also cant call a 909 or 808 preset sounds.. ther are many possible settings and any machine sounds different...they even sound slightly different on any trigger..

It´s realy funny how preset users find excuses for theire unability to program synthezisers.. as said earlier.. ok for many styles or hobby musicans not ok for professional syntheziser music production.. there such a behahavior is per definition a lamers behaviour.. that is really a fact and the correct term to use.. and describes actually even more than just cheating.. its also blocking the game for the real players exactly because the audience cant tell so quickly wether one is using the shiny creations of others or his own stuff..

within the ranking of the game that is indeed cheating and wasting bandwidth.

especially in the middle and lower ranks.. on the highscrores you wont find much presets anymore exept with really horrible hype trace acts ..but thats no original music anyway.. i really see why theese guys dont have to bother about the sounds.. wont make a difference anyway to spend more effort there...


so it really depends on the personal music style wether presets are justified or not. But there are most certainly genres where its considered lame to use them..

its not so difficult to learn how synths work.. less difficult that learnimg how the daw works.. and it can be actually more inspiring than browsing 1000 presets.. so people shouldnt be kept away from that by presets in over abundance..
There are too much presets that come with theese plug ins.. way too much..that only disguises the use of presets and makes it all even more lame...

ps.. and about the tollerating crashbugs..

you were the guy that stated that your L8 runs totaly stable..it only crashes sometimes.. :lol:
that was really the most funny fanboy statement ever.. should get a sticky...
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3phase
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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by 3phase » Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:20 pm

Wunjo wrote: Music is tuned vibrations and it can get as creative as you will let it.

that is correct.. and i dont have a 100% no tollerance regarding preset sounds.. when used in a way it starts beeing vibrant.. ok.. than its a great use of a preset.

but regarding to set this on the same level as the dj debate.. it is somehow..but you have to differentiate more here..
As you descibe it its more like the vst/hardware debate.. a sound question regarding the media
its not really considred lame to use a laptop as dj theese days..

but using auto syncing.. thats rather the debate..wether doing it with timecode vinyl or just say fuck it..autosync works ..quicker setup times..theese disk jugeling is just for the show..

But when somebody would use traktor with an automated playlist anybody would consider this lame.. also most lap top dj´s..

So theese lamer debates have the important function to keep things in balance and maintaining an artform and style somehow..

that it is easier to do the dj sets prerecorded and just have a relaxed time during your gig and taking the oportunity to flirt with some girls dont justifies for your wage...

but without considering that lame we would see that probably pretty often...
Last edited by 3phase on Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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davepermen
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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by davepermen » Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:44 pm

3phase wrote:? sorry man .an instrument in itself is no preset. thats a stupid thing to say
and a preset is not a sample, it can be played like an instrument. a stradivary is like a preset for the violin synth: a specific sounding version of violin.

and one can play it in awesome ways. just like one can play a preset in awesome ways.
ps.. and about the tollerating crashbugs..

you were the guy that stated that your L8 runs totaly stable..it only crashes sometimes.. :lol:
that was really the most funny fanboy statement ever.. should get a sticky...
which was never true, and i said that. and you try to make it true trough repeating it.
i said it never crashes while making music. i had two bugs, one in beta, one afterwards. i reported them. they got fixed. NONE of those was related due to the moments where music was playing (one was when shutting down the pc while live was still open. which you don't do on stage often, shutting down your system).
it was (sadly isn't anymore) 100% stable the moment i posted it. when ever i used it for music. unlike in your case, where it wasn't.
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oddstep
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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by oddstep » Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:47 pm

on one side of the line schlager, on the other side of the line, art. Its a fair distinction, although there are other ways to view creativity. Ultimately only a small percentage are ever going to see the world this way. Its interesting how many people freak out when someone says unimaginative preset use is rubbish.

3phase is doing the forum equivalent of standing in a shopping centre slagging off international capitalism.Loudly. Less coffee?

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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by oddstep » Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:55 pm

davepermen wrote: as said, not using presets myself, or samples, much, as i somehow consider it cheating. but i don't consider it lame, hearing all the non-lame creative stuff created out of it.
Dave, do you mean that great music can be made by cheating? Cheating<>Lame?

davepermen
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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by davepermen » Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:05 pm

oddstep wrote:
davepermen wrote: as said, not using presets myself, or samples, much, as i somehow consider it cheating. but i don't consider it lame, hearing all the non-lame creative stuff created out of it.
Dave, do you mean that great music can be made by cheating? Cheating<>Lame?
yeah, cheating != (<>) lame. lame == the music is in the end uninteresting. cheating would be the dj standing on top, just playing back a mix tape. if the party is still great, it sure wasn't lame. it was cheating. (cheating == getting great results without going the hard way).

now if you know what you do, and you catch someone cheating, you obviously consider that person lame => cheating and lame are related. but as long as one can cheat, and no one notices, no one would call it lame.

i just personally consider it cheating, when i do my own stuff. but i see patchwork art outside of music, too, and it can be great work.

it's a personal choice what way one wants to go, and what way one considers good, or bad. important is, in the end, to actually DO something (playing great own composed melodies on a a preset is still a great piece of work, just not on the preset, but on the melody). if you don't do anything (copy the melody, use a preset to play it back, and then save the whole to playback on stage, for exmaple), then i'd consider it cheating, and i would myself be bored to do that.

but whole music industries abused samples and presets in creative ways. see the quoted prodigy. it's new music they created, even if the samples are "stolen". so it's still great work in there.
when scooter on the other hand takes the newest top10 in the hardstyle scene, and screams his nonsense on top and sells it as new tracks, it's not something i would be proud of (and if it incorporates getting sued by the original artists, and having that calculated as being less than the money you get from the millions of records sold, so not being an issue, i would be even LESS proud of it).
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Synthbuilder
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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by Synthbuilder » Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:06 pm

I know how to program synths of all types. I even know how to fix them. On occasion I also design the little beggars. :wink:

Do I use presets? Of course I do. Sometimes I even use them untweaked.

I use sample sets too. 8O

If the cap fits...

And in the thousands of downloads and CDs of my music no one has ever said to me - ah, you used a preset.

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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by pepezabala » Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:22 pm

lame or not lame doesn't depend on uing presets or not. It doesn't even depend on originality or musical craftmanship. Those help a lot, but I also have seen people doing stunning liveshows although they were no good musicians and their musical material wasn't very original. You can do a fantastic show with a couple of generic chord changes on a broken instrument.

A good artist must be able to evoke fascination at his audience. He must be able to create an imaginary space where he shares a thought or a feeling or a secret with the people contemplating his art, may it be music or painting or literature or whatever. If people get caught and carried away by this, then the artist is a good performer.

Originality works with good for art, because it stimulates interest. People will always be more interested in listening to something new etc.
But people also like to get carried away by something that they already had made good experiences with in the past. This is way some people still go to Bluesrock concerts. Or to house-discos.

If the blues band only repeats the same stuff over and over, then people will say it's lame, so the blues band needs to do variations. Maybe change the Key From E-Major to C-Major after a couple of songs. Or the house DJ should maybe wave his arms here and there, otherwise people might get bored.

But this is all related to performance. Using presets or not is only one of many little things that might matter.

When it comes to production, then the question wether to use presets or not is highly connected to the question wether the artist wants to prove originality or not. Some artists do not have to be original. They want to make people dance. Or they have lyrics with a message. Or they want to mix up some elements that already exist, but in a different way to create something new.

Other artists want to create something original and new from scratch. Those artists definetly shouldn't use recognizable presets.

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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by Cezband » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:09 pm

3phase, you're a pretty knowledgeable guy and you're obviously pretty passionate, but I don't think I've ever seen you post something on here which isn't relentlessly negative in my past year of lurking this board. I'm not saying this to attack, I actually am quite fascinated in trying to understand where your opinions are coming from. :wink:

Please forgive the following, I'm just attempting to see your perspective:
For instance, I'm wondering where you stand on someone using a standard 808 kick? You say it's not a preset, but if it's something that someone else made then what is the difference?

So, for example, if you write a song and you want to use that 808 sort of sound, do you design a kick sound from scratch, that sounds like it? What would be the point when everyone who hears it thinks it's a standard 808? Or are you suggesting that you would never use such a sound in your compositions, ever? Does this mean that every kick or snare or synth line you ever put down never sounds anything like any other kick or snare or synth line EVER made? ...because that's impossible. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, these are just what the things you are saying seem to imply. If I need a hard kick, and I've got a sample of a hard kick, then I'll use it. If I need a dirty synth line, and I've got a preset of a dirty synth line, then I'll use it. :D

I'm interpreting what you are saying as "If you make electronic music and you are not a sound designer, then you are a lamer." To me, this seems like a staggeringly close-minded statement which completely bypasses all the classic artistic elements of music. But again, I could very well be misinterpreting what you are saying. I would love some clarification please! :)
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simonlb
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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by simonlb » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:12 pm

I've struggled for years to get good sounds out of synths from scratch. I'm slowly getting there but sometimes it's just like banging my head against a brick wall. I understand all the theory (I'm an electronic engineer) but actually getting the sound in my head is a pain.

I do use presets from time to time. I'll very rarely use them not tweaked and it's easy enough to tweak them to my liking. I don't see much wrong with it, if it fits the track then great. As others have said it's a nightmare browsing through thousands and thousands of mostly unusable presets (who actually uses all these "Super Sync Leads"?) to get the right sound - I tend to base a sound on a preset if I stumble upon one that sounds good.

3phase
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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by 3phase » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:22 pm

Synthbuilder wrote:
If the cap fits...
which cap? the lazyman cap? the quick and dirty cap?

just using a preset once in while defenetly dont qualifies for the lamers cap..


but chunking together a track with the aid of a handfull of presets and doing 3 note funky standard phrases with it does..
especially on music styles that are build around theese kind of phrases as house music and related styles up to drum&bass to dubstep do...

It happens very often theese days that tracks in this fashion get released because to many people claim that preset use is ok without differentiating the use or have some moral about it..

thats the same like saying using hacks is ok regardless if you make profit with them or not..

thats actually a quite good example ..people say they use hacks because they cant afford the program anyway so they dont steal any business from the software company by using the freely available hacks...

ok or not?

however there is a hacker ethics that clearly says that once you make regular use of the software or personal profit you have to buy it..
a release is personal profit regardless of the amount of money earned with it..

anybody never used a hack? anybody never used a preset?

pretty much compareable i guess...

its all about the proportion here ..and the use of presets in contemporary electronic music has really went out of balance..

so some harder words against preset use are allowed !

However its true that you cant really paint a strict black/white picture there..

people should try to avoid presets and be motivated to be more creativ about their work.. its more rewarding anyway in the long run and more ethical too.
You really steal business from others by wasting the bandwidth of the market with generic preset productions..
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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by AceLuby » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:53 pm

A stolen piece of software is the same as a preset? Um, no, not even in the same ballpark.
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3phase
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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by 3phase » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:08 pm

AceLuby wrote:A stolen piece of software is the same as a preset? Um, no, not even in the same ballpark.
nobody is saying that..but the moral twists behind it are compareable
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