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 Post subject: Some questions before switching from RC-50 to Live 8/Laptop
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:39 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:44 am
Posts: 32
Hi guys,

I've done a lot reading lately and I'm pretty much resigned to replace my Boss RC-50 with a Live 8 and MacBook Pro setup. Here's what I plan on using, any thoughts or suggestions regarding this hardware is welcome:

-MacBook Pro 15" i7
-Ableton Live or Suite 8 (um, obviously)
-Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 DSP
-Roland FC-300 MIDI foot controller
-Akai APC 40
-and a compact keyboard (so I don't have to lug my Axiom 49

Sooooo, here are my primary concerns:

1. Obviously I do loop based music, so I plan on using several instances of the looper effect. The only non-live elements I use are drum beats/occasional samples. So, can I get looper to sync with the set's tempo while running a click, i.e. so i can set up a few loops before I drop the first drumbeat?

2. Assuming most songs I play will have their own sets, if I map the MIDI differently per song (not extremely, but say 3 instances of looper in one set versus 5 in another) are these maps saved in the Live set itself? Or do you have to remap each time you open the set?

I think that's all for now. Sorry I've been trying to find the answers to no avail. Here's a link to a video of what I do (this is a cover of Ghostland Observatory's "Sad Sad City", for reference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnVI4XKVP1s

I really just wanna be able to perform complex looped songs a la Gavin Castleton except predominantly guitar based rather than keys.

Any help or advice will be greatly appreciated! Sorry for the long first post!!!

-Ian

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-Ian

Live 8.2.1 (XP) :: RME Fireface UC :: PT LE 8 :: MBox 2 Mini :: Axiom 49 Classic :: Roland FC-300


Last edited by ItsAllSticky on Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Some questions beofre switching from RC-50 to Live 8/Laptop
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:32 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:49 pm
Posts: 412
I have recently made this hardware to software switch (though I wish I could afford your intended set-up!) and I had a Boss RC-50 also. On the loop-based and live looping side of Ableton, it does appear to my own research and learning curve that there's not much that is not possible, even if it means a workaround, such as using the IAC driver or ClyphX or something.

To more directly answer your questions:

1. Looper, as everything else in Live, defaults to syncing with the master tempo, I believe. However, like with the RC-50 style of looping, you can set it to set the tempo for you (as in you use it first, it sets the tempo like you can do on the RC-50 and then everything else syncs to that). As for a click, using the Looper first in this method sort of eliminates the need for a click. However, there is the standard metronome or you could set up a clip to act as a click for you. Also, Tom Cosm's set up for live looping using the IAC driver includes a count-in. So there are ways.

2. As far as I know, MIDI mappings are saved per set. You can set default ones by making the mappings and going into preferences and saving that set as the default when you open a new set but any mappings you make other than those (or alternative to those) are saved with the set.

Ableton was being used and praised highly for its live looping abilities before Looper came along, so you might want to look into other ways of recording loops live too, as I think I read somewhere that having multiple Loopers can be quite CPU-intensive (though I might have dreamt that - waste of a dream). And anyway, with your i7, you'll probably be fine anyway. It's only poor people like me who have to worry so much about that kind of thing.

I think that's enough typing now.


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 Post subject: Re: Some questions beofre switching from RC-50 to Live 8/Laptop
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:18 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:44 am
Posts: 32
Mister36,

Thanks for the quick reply! The few posts I've found about former RC-50 users seems to indicate Live is a superior tool. I think the use of the APC 40 will ultimately give me the main feature I missed in the RC-50, which is the ability to stop and number or combo of loops at a time, rather than one at a time or all at once. Also, as someone whose sole income is as a performing musician, I ASSURE you'll I'll be poor again after I finish this setup. I'll likely try SuperLooper as well as Live's Looper and compare their functionality/CPU load before I dedicate myself to one or the other. Thanks again for the response, you've definitely helped make me more confident about my rig re-vamp!

If anyone could direct me to any more threads regarding the use of Live for live looping or people that moved from the RC-50 to live, I'd be much obliged. I promise I've UTSF a whole bunch, maybe I'm a crappy searcher ;)

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-Ian

Live 8.2.1 (XP) :: RME Fireface UC :: PT LE 8 :: MBox 2 Mini :: Axiom 49 Classic :: Roland FC-300


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 Post subject: Re: Some questions before switching from RC-50 to Live 8/Laptop
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:50 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:49 pm
Posts: 412
It was a seriously big step for me, as I was very much a hardware person for quite a while but there are some things that hardware just can't do (or can't do easily or "on the fly" - God, I hate that phrase).

I have downloaded Sooperlooper myself but not tried it yet. It may well be that it is superior to the Ableton Looper, which is only really in its first stages. However, I doubt you'll be able to drag the Sooperlooper's loop to a clip slot. But then, you can't do that without the mouse (I don't think) with Looper anyway. It would be very useful to be able to map a footswitch to do that for you. Even if it just created a new track for it each time.


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 Post subject: Re: Some questions before switching from RC-50 to Live 8/Laptop
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:46 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:44 am
Posts: 32
Not sure what you mean...like say you were in a set with 3 instances of looper you'd like to be able to add another track with looper "on the fly" without touching the computer? I could see how that would be cool from an improvisational standpoint. Trust me, I feel you on the OTF phrase, way overused but easier than saying, "and you don't even have to stop audio playback." Do you have any vids by chance? what's your current setup like and do you perform live?

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-Ian

Live 8.2.1 (XP) :: RME Fireface UC :: PT LE 8 :: MBox 2 Mini :: Axiom 49 Classic :: Roland FC-300


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 Post subject: Re: Some questions before switching from RC-50 to Live 8/Laptop
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:59 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:49 pm
Posts: 412
What you said would also be useful and, I think, possible (with Bomes or something like it). But no, what I meant is the feature of Looper to be able to drag the loop you've created in Looper to one of the clip slots. I think it would be good if you could make it do that with the touch of a button.

And as for me, I don't have any videos. My set-up is currently under construction still since changing from hardware but so far it includes a black MacBook (2.4Ghz, 2GB RAM - want to upgrade), ACP40, LPK25, NI Kore player, Korg MS-20 vst, Guitar Rig 4 Pro and Rig Kontrol (on the way) and Traktor's 12. I've played live for many years under various guises but never with this set-up. I've barely even worked on anything with this yet due to not having the time at the moment.
I'll take a look at your video some time soon though.


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 Post subject: Re: Some questions before switching from RC-50 to Live 8/Laptop
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:02 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:44 am
Posts: 32
Oh, I see what you're saying now. So are you going to be able to control Looper functions through your Rig Kontrol board or is that only capable of "kontroling" Guitar Rig? I'm already looking forward to the next incarnation of Looper. I feel like when a company like Ableton really spends some time on an idea like this we'll really get some cool and fresh features.

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-Ian

Live 8.2.1 (XP) :: RME Fireface UC :: PT LE 8 :: MBox 2 Mini :: Axiom 49 Classic :: Roland FC-300


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 Post subject: Re: Some questions before switching from RC-50 to Live 8/Laptop
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:33 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:49 pm
Posts: 412
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what I'm going to use the switches and expression pedal for. It just seemed like too good a bargain to miss in the sale they had. But I also knew that down the line, I would want more "kontrol" with my feet and so it was a worthy investment too. It seems to be one of the better MIDI footpedals out there at the moment that's not too big. And it's a decent USB audio interface too.
But no, you can use it like you would any MIDI device and assign the switches and "kontrollers" to whatever you want. And, unlike the APC40, it comes with its own editor software.
I will probably use at least some of it for the Looper device, though assigning all of it to Looper functions would make quite a beast of a looper pedal. :P


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 Post subject: Re: Some questions before switching from RC-50 to Live 8/Laptop
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:26 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:37 am
Posts: 71
Location: UK
Hi Ian,
I've been live looping with Ableton for a few years now, after switching from a loopstation. It is a bit of a learning curve at first, but you won't regret it - opens up so many more options & possibilities.

With that setup I imagine you'll be able to do everything you mention & more...

Midi mappings are saved with each set.

Have fun!

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http://www.jonsterckx.co.uk


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 Post subject: Re: Some questions before switching from RC-50 to Live 8/Laptop
PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:36 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:44 am
Posts: 32
Hey Jon,

Thanks for the info. It's funny, I've actually watched some vids of you before when I was trying to find guys that did this sort of thing, very cool. Just wanted to ask, have you been live looping in Ableton Live since before the Looper effect came out? i.e. are you using the Looper effect when you perform or simply using clip slots from audio tracks?

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-Ian

Live 8.2.1 (XP) :: RME Fireface UC :: PT LE 8 :: MBox 2 Mini :: Axiom 49 Classic :: Roland FC-300


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 Post subject: Gavin is COOL
PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:14 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:02 pm
Posts: 70
I'm a looper wanna be, and I was very impressed with that Gavin Castleboy video as well. THAT'S what I wanna do. His video also give lots of clues as to how its done. But wait, there's more...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXOosbEREPs Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXOosbEREPs Part 2

Here's a couple Tube vids of Nicoluminous' version. The KEY here is that he starts with the Looper to set tempo, then records into clipslots after that point. This has lots of advantages and only requires a single Looper. Gets rid of the shortcoming of needing to DRAG your looper to a clipslot.
I just make the first drum track in Looper, then the rest in good ole clipslots. THANKS TO NICO for showing this setup clearly. Its pretty easy!

I use the FCB1010 footpedal for most of this, but I haven't settled on a setup yet- the experimentation continues. I'm wanting to use dummy clips so I can launch multiple clips, or stop multiple clips with one button. Tom Cosm shows how to do this on his excellent site. Once yo add this, you can build song templates that does things to whatever is in a particular slot- stops the slot, plays it 4x then stops, fades it out, adds and changes effects, etc- all automagically using DUMMY CLIPS!

Great thread- we should ask for a separate board for just us looper types. I think their are plenty lurking.

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"Deliberate practice creates expertise"


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 Post subject: Re: Some questions before switching from RC-50 to Live 8/Laptop
PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:32 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:44 am
Posts: 32
Hey, thanks WFWS. I agree, a separate little board for loopers would be legit. There are like 2 pages about looper in the manual, so without youtube and the forum, it's a daunting task to exploit the full potential. Even just a dedicated board for "Live as Performance Tool" would help. I'm learning live as I go along, and have some experience with Live Lite, but my main concerns are more "Live/Looper as performance tool" than "Live as a DAW" if that makes sense. I'm off to get lunch but I'll definitely check those vids out and get back to work when I get back! I've heard Gavin talking about the dummy clips so you don't have to "dance" so much onstage. Ha, with my RC-50 and Effects board I'm currently on one leg for about 60% of my shows ;) What is meant by a dummy clip? No audio, just automation etc? Gotta do some more research. I'm really wanting to put together an "Intro to Live w/ Looper" thread but I'm gonna have to learn a whole lot more. Not a comprehensive thread, per se, but a way to start using it ASAP without getting bogged down with a lot of the basic set up questions. A thread for another day, but yeah, there are definitely a healthy amount of us lurking. Look forward to sharing with you!

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-Ian

Live 8.2.1 (XP) :: RME Fireface UC :: PT LE 8 :: MBox 2 Mini :: Axiom 49 Classic :: Roland FC-300


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 Post subject: Re: Some questions before switching from RC-50 to Live 8/Laptop
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:14 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:02 pm
Posts: 70
Sticky, a dummy clip is an audio or midi clip that is used to do something instead of play audio. That 'something' can be clip envelope changes like volume or pitch changes, effects, etc, or you can use midi notes to launch clips, scenes, turn effects on/off, turn on monitor, select tracks- it boggles the mind. Anything that can be assigned via midi control can be assigned to a note in a midi dummy clip. When the note 'plays' instead of producing a sound it triggers whatever you have it assigned to- a clip, an envelope change, and so on.

It gets pretty crazy what you can do, because you can have multiple notes control many things at once or sequentially as different notes in the dummy clip are played. Tom Cosm's videos are EXCELLENT on this, and so are Covert Operators tuts.

You don't HAVE to know about dummy clips to be in Looper Heaven with Live. But it sure puts more stars in the sky.

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Live 8 Suite, i7 2600K 8gb, 500gb 7200 HD, Firepod, Keystation 88, TrapKat, FCB1010
"Deliberate practice creates expertise"


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 Post subject: Re: Some questions before switching from RC-50 to Live 8/Laptop
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:40 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:37 pm
Posts: 433
Location: Buffalo NY
Here is a setup you guys may want to try (I'm lazy so this is copied from an old post):

Set up two audio tracks and then group them, monitor in on both, audio to the group, group to master (or sends). The first track is your input channel, the second track receives its signal from the first. On the second track place Looper, set Loopers input-output to (surprisingly) never, so that it only passes audio when a loop is present (thus avoiding volume ganging). Audio EFX can be used after the Looper for FSU. Additional loops with that instrument can be had by duplicating the second track within the group, receiving audio from the input track. Then start mapping the FCB1010 switches to the functions you desire! It is amazingly fun!

There are a lot of good looper threads on this forum, do some searching, and for sure you will never miss your rc-50! I sure don't!

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 Post subject: Re: Some questions before switching from RC-50 to Live 8/Laptop
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:51 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:44 am
Posts: 32
WFWS: Thanks for the explanation! I'll be sure to check out Tom's vids and get a better idea of how these dummy clips can be used.

mojofunk: I appreciate the setup idea. I've been setting up loopers on return tracks but that's not ideal for me. I really just need my FC-300 to get here cause I'm fed up with only having one loop/overdub. Ha, I got rid of my old RC-20 for a reason!!

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-Ian

Live 8.2.1 (XP) :: RME Fireface UC :: PT LE 8 :: MBox 2 Mini :: Axiom 49 Classic :: Roland FC-300


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