Pretty long beta huh?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Machinesworking
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Re: Pretty long beta huh?

Post by Machinesworking » Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:16 pm

Khazul wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:@glitchrock-buddha
On that line I doubt the next version is 64 bit, considering Serrato and M4L will both have to be to work properly I would guess.
Who cares about serato? - they should switch to traktor :p
Personally I could give a shit about any DJ software? :P

glitchrock-buddha
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Re: Pretty long beta huh?

Post by glitchrock-buddha » Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:43 pm

Machinesworking wrote:@glitchrock-buddha
On that line I doubt the next version is 64 bit, considering Serrato and M4L will both have to be to work properly I would guess.
I really don't know. I was under the impression that making a DAW 64 bit was that much of a rewrite. I mean Logic has done it and we all know they wouldn't rewrite that! :wink:

I would guess there's much more chance of 64 bit coming along than clip automation recording. But I don't know.

Anyways, this beta's talking a while eh?...

Machinesworking wrote: Personally I could give a shit about any DJ software? :P
Me I couldn't give a shit about DJ software in Ableton.... except maybe Ms.Pinky.
Professional Shark Jumper.

Machinesworking
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Re: Pretty long beta huh?

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:37 am

glitchrock-buddha wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:@glitchrock-buddha
On that line I doubt the next version is 64 bit, considering Serrato and M4L will both have to be to work properly I would guess.
I really don't know. I was under the impression that making a DAW 64 bit was that much of a rewrite. I mean Logic has done it and we all know they wouldn't rewrite that! :wink:

I would guess there's much more chance of 64 bit coming along than clip automation recording. But I don't know.

Anyways, this beta's talking a while eh?...
Well Sonar and Logic happen to be single OS DAWs, and both have deep ties with the OS for different reasons. Hard to judge the breadth of work it would take based on a company that came up with a plug in standard on Windows in conjunction with Microsoft, and a company that is now a development team for Apple.
Digital Performer isn't 64 bit yet, and not all the Windows only DAWs are. Couple that with Cycling 74 probably having a hell of a time with porting, (they took forever to get Pluggo on OSX, one of my last plug ins), and I would think you're right, if we get 64 bit, it's going to probably be synchronous with clip envelop recording.

AFA them taking longer, I'm OK with that, I don't have the money to upgrade right now, so I'm hoping on April or later, which is a safe bet given that they'll probably have at least a one month long public beta.

Tone Deft
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Re: Pretty long beta huh?

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:51 am

I get the impression that every new update will be called a beta until the next one comes out.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

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Machinesworking
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Re: Pretty long beta huh?

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:14 am

Tone Deft wrote:I get the impression that every new update will be called a beta until the next one comes out.
I hope you're wrong. I'm still on 7. I plan to upgrade right when 9 comes out, and sit on the free upgrade to 9 until it's cooked, if they still do the same deal as in the past. Honestly I'm salivating for some of the simple ergonomic UI features of 8, (group tracks! colored track headers, my live set is a monster!), but financial times are tough enough to where I doubt I could afford two upgrades in the same year, so I wait. It's looking like I'll have an extra $200 to upgrade about the same time 9 comes out anyway! :lol:

Tone Deft
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Re: Pretty long beta huh?

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:26 am

the term beta is pretty arbitrary. I've released beta software as a release with little testing, other times I've done the same thing but only after a soak in the field for a few months.

this one time I bought some music software that was at a major release, then they put out lots of betas to fix it. people were PISSED, you should have seen it!

I don't have to write this but don't take the forum's word on what's stable, maybe listen to a few users you trust. there are some crippled minds that post here. try the demos.

how that I think about it... seeing as how I've only used Live since version 3 I'll be pretty easy to impress with any new features. :oops: ooh bezier curves!!
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

Dell Inspiron 15 7000, Live 10.1, Win10 Home, Edirol UA101, APC40, Remote SL, SPD-SX, mic, POD500HDX, JX305, Nova
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necho
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Re: Pretty long beta huh?

Post by necho » Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:21 am

Creating dependencies on multiple external companies was an incredibly dumb move, code-wise. This is the kind of thing that happens when the marketing people get too much control.

Speaking from years of painful experience.
_________
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Klinke
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Re: Pretty long beta huh?

Post by Klinke » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:55 pm

fx23 wrote:@glitchrock
you are probably right. :roll:
I really, really hope so.


(It is an absolute bad situation for me atm, it destroyed my plans with abletonLive, and it is just the easy midi-mapping, that holds me off from going back to cubase.)
Pineapple, cards or cocaine?

Tarekith
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Re: Pretty long beta huh?

Post by Tarekith » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:04 pm

Khazul wrote:Who cares about serato? - they should switch to traktor :p
+1

Machinesworking
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Re: Pretty long beta huh?

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:43 pm

@Tone I get you, I'm pretty sure from what I've read in the last couple months that the latest version is stable enough for my system.
Thing is at this point because I did try the original actual beta, and made the decision to wait until it was reported as stable enough, (I sent in my crash reports etc.) at this point it really is just down to my own finances. Remember I'm in the construction trades, and unfortunately construction in WA is even more intensely hit than most states. I really don't have any choice but to wait until about April before upgrading, and I'm pretty certain we're going to hear something about Live 9 by then.
Live 3 was my intro to Live as well.
necho wrote:Creating dependencies on multiple external companies was an incredibly dumb move, code-wise. This is the kind of thing that happens when the marketing people get too much control.

Speaking from years of painful experience.
Again the comparison to NI comes to mind. NI in my experience and in popular public opinion for years pushed ideas to market far too soon, releasing buggy software and long waits on betas etc. I think it was obvious that the marketing branch had lost contact with the developers at some point. Now, they're pretty dammed stable and marketing does what it does without making empty promises. I think Ableton got hit with that lack of communication issue pretty hard. Hopefully all this means a concentration on stability and user experience in Live 9, and makes for a return to people feeling confident about Ableton again? I complain about features I want, but in the end I use Live more than any other DAW, and will probably continue to for years.

fx23
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Re: Pretty long beta huh?

Post by fx23 » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:59 pm

Machinesworking wrote: I complain about features I want, but in the end I use Live more than any other DAW, and will probably continue to for years.
Same here, who loves hate. who don't care, don't care.

Khazul
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Re: Pretty long beta huh?

Post by Khazul » Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:50 pm

Machinesworking wrote:@Tone I get you, I'm pretty sure from what I've read in the last couple months that the latest version is stable enough for my system.
Thing is at this point because I did try the original actual beta, and made the decision to wait until it was reported as stable enough, (I sent in my crash reports etc.) at this point it really is just down to my own finances. Remember I'm in the construction trades, and unfortunately construction in WA is even more intensely hit than most states. I really don't have any choice but to wait until about April before upgrading, and I'm pretty certain we're going to hear something about Live 9 by then.
Live 3 was my intro to Live as well.
necho wrote:Creating dependencies on multiple external companies was an incredibly dumb move, code-wise. This is the kind of thing that happens when the marketing people get too much control.

Speaking from years of painful experience.
Again the comparison to NI comes to mind. NI in my experience and in popular public opinion for years pushed ideas to market far too soon, releasing buggy software and long waits on betas etc. I think it was obvious that the marketing branch had lost contact with the developers at some point. Now, they're pretty dammed stable and marketing does what it does without making empty promises. I think Ableton got hit with that lack of communication issue pretty hard. Hopefully all this means a concentration on stability and user experience in Live 9, and makes for a return to people feeling confident about Ableton again? I complain about features I want, but in the end I use Live more than any other DAW, and will probably continue to for years.
NI are producing some really good software and hardware these days. Be interesting to see if people get many teathing problems with the new S4, but looks like a great bit of kit, and I have no worries it will be solid eventually if it isnt already given my experience of the recent versions of Tracktor, X1 and Audio 8 DJ which all work realy well now. Even the terrible early problms with Massive are a thing of the past now, Maschine looks great (and good feel and UI and sound too) and I hear so many positive thing about it (very tempted to get one) and have nothing but positive things to say about their kontact libraries (session strings, alicia's keys piano and berlin grand piano) that I have sound wise, Battery seems very decent from the demo and tempting.
My guitar playing co-producer really loves the guitar rig sound - even says some of the simulations are really true to the gear upon which they are based from having owned/used that gear in the past. I actually quite like the sound of their stuff too (not so much raw massive, I still think thats a bit plastic, but their effects processing has a enjoyable full sound to it generally and that makes masive useful).

I actually wish they did a dedicated APC40 like controller but better - Im so tempted by the functionality of the APC40, but something about it keeps making me hold back and Novation SL zero + launchpad aint really grabbing me either for various reasons. I have to wonder of ableton had partnered with NI for the bridge type thing instead of serato if the S4 might have had some really well thought out Live control on it somewhere that would just blow the APC away.

If I had a ton of cash to blow, could be tempted to upgrade/get komplete and kore2 TBH.
Nothing to see here - move along!

Machinesworking
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Re: Pretty long beta huh?

Post by Machinesworking » Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:25 pm

Komplete and Kore 2 are a great combo. I've owned Komplete since version 2 and honestly back then it was more about the sound than it being a reliable set of instruments. NI pretty much turned that around about 2 years ago roughly, Reactor became stable, same with Kontakt and Battery 3, (Absynth, FM7-8, Pro53,B4 were always stable on my system). Kore 2 is amazing, it's hard to get people to realize how useful it is, as you can "do" all the stuff you can do in Kore in Live, it's just the fully intuitive and fast way you can in Kore, plus preset browsing, pretty much Racks on steroids. Saving full configurations of instruments for performance that can be recalled via program change messages is a huge one to me, basically allows me to load about 18 instruments into a Kore instance that shuts off the ones you're not using so your processor doesn't fry. I recommend it, in fact the Kore 1 hardware is IMO better, you have a 2 in 4 out (headphone out and two line out), audio card with MIDI and digital out as well built in to essentially the exact same hardware. I see them go for $150 or less around here sometimes. Anyway yeah Komplete, Kore and Live, great combo. :)

JuanSOLO
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Re: Pretty long beta huh?

Post by JuanSOLO » Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:15 pm

Machinesworking wrote:I recommend it, in fact the Kore 1 hardware is IMO better, you have a 2 in 4 out (headphone out and two line out), audio card with MIDI and digital out as well built in to essentially the exact same hardware. I see them go for $150 or less around here sometimes. Anyway yeah Komplete, Kore and Live, great combo. :)
I own Komplete 6 and have been into Reaktor for years. I guess I have always over looked Kore and the controller, until recently. I use FM8 and Massive quite a bit in my Live performance set. I have almost bought Kore and the controller a few times over the last month. I guess I put it off a bit more thinking they are about to release something new to take it's place. After reading this I start to think maybe I should invest in a Kore 1 controller, and the software.

I have 2 questions though.
1. I remember there was lots of talk about Kore 1 being a flop. Is this just software related? Because the Kore 1 controller looks way better as far as Hardware ports.

2. My idea is that in my Live set I would just have Kore loaded instead instances of FM8, Reaktor, and Mssive. So I would be able to use Kore solely to store and recall all of my presets in the variety of NI softs without overloading my CPU? I mean I have seen this and watched some videos, I guess I just want to know how well it actually works as a plug in Live. How CPU and GUI friendly it really is.

I'm kind of surprised this idea was not integrated in to something like the APC40, some kind of Ableton controller with browser access so to speak. I hope Ableton and AKAI made enough money off the cheap ass build the APC40 turned out to be and decide to use some of those funds to build a better quality piece of hardware.

Machinesworking
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Re: Pretty long beta huh?

Post by Machinesworking » Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:30 pm

JuanSOLO wrote: 1. I remember there was lots of talk about Kore 1 being a flop. Is this just software related? Because the Kore 1 controller looks way better as far as Hardware ports.
Kore 1 was OK, they just fixed a lot of things with Kore 2. First off Kore 1 hardware is stickier with hot plugging. On Windows and certain Mac systems I guess if it's not plugged in or loses connection you have to reopen your Live set with Kore in it I hear. For whatever reason that has never been a problem for me, probably one time in twenty if the USB cord gets loose or something I have to restart Live, usually I just plug it back in and it works.
The other Kore 1 thing was for about the first 8 months you had to have the hardware plugged in to use the software, which was a stupid idea on NI's part.
2. My idea is that in my Live set I would just have Kore loaded instead instances of FM8, Reaktor, and Mssive. So I would be able to use Kore solely to store and recall all of my presets in the variety of NI softs without overloading my CPU? I mean I have seen this and watched some videos, I guess I just want to know how well it actually works as a plug in Live. How CPU and GUI friendly it really is.

I'm kind of surprised this idea was not integrated in to something like the APC40, some kind of Ableton controller with browser access so to speak. I hope Ableton and AKAI made enough money off the cheap ass build the APC40 turned out to be and decide to use some of those funds to build a better quality piece of hardware.
Kore eats CPU like a moderate or lightweight synth plug in. The way it works as a single instance is really pretty sweet. There are what they call Performance presets that hold all your currently loaded plug ins in various states modification wise, and in various on/off states. I run a modest at this point Core 2 duo 2.4Ghz. laptop and my Kore instance for my Live Set is roughly:
Kontakt 3 instances for various songs. Running a huge Akoustik Piano etc.
Absynth 2 instances
Massive 2 instances
B4, Filterscape, Zebra 2.
So roughly 10 instruments plus about 20 FX plug ins.
Outside of Kore I run an instance of Speakerphone and Buffer Override. Mostly the CPu stays bellow 60%. To me anyway that's pretty good considering my laptop is 3 1/2 years old now. The plug ins of course aren't all running at the same time, each Performance Preset turns off and on Tracks to save CPU. That line up would cripple even a modern high end desktop in most cases. I have songs set up as individual clips and each Performance is set to a program change message that sets up that song for my controller keyboard and Kore. Theres a little navigating in Kore to change focus for the controller itself, but beyond that it's all automatic. :)

I have no idea why Ableton completely lost focus on performing musicians that want to use Live as a way to play soft synths, but I think they've just never seen it as a viable market. A lot of people who play keys will use a Korg or other workstation with Live separate. Changing soft synths in Ableton has alway been dicy at best, and setting it all up to get Live to turn off the CPU to save resources is a PITA bar none. Then again if you're wanting to be glued to the screen of your laptop or set it all up in Arrangement View it's not so bad I guess.... but if I'm going to use a traditional linear window for live performance, it's going to be with Digital Performer <- Chunks also free up some CPU etc.

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