Session View Vs Clip View Arranging Wheres the Fluidity??

Chris Cowie · Post by **Chris Cowie** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:57 pm

Im a bit of a traditionalist and I would say that 99% of the time I write and arrange in the session view in Live. Ive tried to record arrangements using the clip view on many occasions but I always end up editing, cutting, pasting, editing automation etc, so I basically end up arranging the track again as I normally would. When recording an arrangement via clip view my tracks sound to ‘Blocky’ if that makes any sense? And the real time fades and eq changes are a bit of a disaster….not natural (hence all the editing)

I used to have full analog setup with an analog console and outboard FX. I recorded and produce at least 100 records using the on the fly method. (the same as the reggae guys). This would consist of a 4-8 bar loop using an Atari for sequencing and I would fade tracks in and out using the console faders in real time, turn EQ knobs, Aux sends and so on while mixing down to DAT. Each sound would have a channel of its own and sometimes I would have up to 32 separate faders to deal with but it was never a problem. Some of the channels would have repeating FX noises that I would fade in and out when I felt the need, and I would even program a couple of drum fills and punch in the fills when it was needed. I always instinctively knew which channel was playing a certain sound. There was something about this method that really worked for me. The feel, dynamics were all there and very natural and no one could really tell this was a live and on the fly mix but they could tell it had a certain human or funky feel. One important point is that I would often just start the dat machine with no plan of what I was going to do, but 99% of the time I woudl get it right first time and that version would end up as a release.....I felt what needed to happen rather than think what should happen

BUT

When I try this with Live in Clip view it just doesn’t seem to work for me. Moving a knob to adjust volumes on my crappy controller is a real hit or miss affair and using the mouse is a complete waste of time. A slight raise in volume and its to much, or not enough. I can never seem to get the result or feel Im looking for.

I also find that I tend to have to think about what Im doing rather than feeling what I should be doing. Trying to do this with Live seems to require a lot of planning before hand which can take the moment away. Or is it just me?

Obviously my controller doesn’t help much here, but neither would the ones with full throw faders as they generally only have eight faders….of course I could buy 3 and link them up I suppose. But even then there’s not enough buttons for EQ and FX.

I would love to do my arrangements on the fly again, but I just cant seem to Gel with Live in this area.

This is not a fault of Ableton Live, this is simply a me thing.

So if any of you guys have any words of wisdom Im all ears

Cheers

zeropoint · Post by **zeropoint** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:25 pm

Hi Chris

I always work in session view and jam/record arrangements into the arranger view. I agree with you about the volume control...but that's down to there only being 127 steps in midi I guess...so that's never going to be the same as riding the faders on an analog board. And I can't say I've ever managed a complete mix this way but the beauty of Live for me is to be able to record all those moves into the arranger and then move in for some fine tuning which is something we couldn't do going straight to DAT. I used to have an O3D and loads of outboard but I'd never go back......well done for your warping method BTW....saved me loads of arsing about.

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:22 pm

Hey chris, have you thought about getting lots of outputs from your computer and routing them into an analogue console again ?

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:01 am

Hey Chris,
just another note .. I recently saw some video footage of the chemical brothers performing live and they were mixing things in using an outboard mixer.. so once again seriously try considering multi outs from live and do things the way you used to with an analogue mixer.

I used to have this type of setup when I was back home, but im travelling now and it's not as practical for me and I LOVED IT. It was so much nicer to work with even a behringer mixer than live's faders which are as very sensitive.

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:13 am

maybe look into something with longer throw faders.
like the Behringer BCF or JLCooper Fader Master Pro or CS-10mk2
all have 100mm faders.

if ya can't get more than 127 steps in midi, then the best you can do is stretch those 127 steps out.

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:36 am

for the blockiness in the session produced arrangements...
do you ever use 'Legato' mode in Clip Launch with the quantisation off? I tend to work like that for some things - it makes for a much more instantaneous sound as you leap from one pattern to the next - mid bar.
If anyone is unfamiliar with this, the manual explains it all.

for the old 127 problem,
sadly we'll have to wait until OSC (or similar) becomes more accepted as a hardware interface. OSC can send 64 bit float numbers . As I understand it :
2^64 = 4,294,967,296 !

I think even the most dynamically sensitive of us wouldn't quible at a resolution of over 4 billion increments on a controller.

Chris Cowie · Post by **Chris Cowie** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:35 pm

Thanks all for the suggestions. Much appreciated.

Outboard Mixer

Yep, I have been thinking of getting another one. But I cant deny I do like the idea of total recall..........and I like to keep myself mobile. Its a solution theres no doubt about that....Hmmmmm, but I woyld like to be able to do this in live

127

Thats obviously the reason real time fades sound crap. I wasnt aware the volume control had such low resolution. Hope this can be fixed at some point in the future.

Angstrom

for the blockiness in the session produced arrangements...
do you ever use 'Legato' mode in Clip Launch with the quantisation off? I tend to work like that for some things - it makes for a much more instantaneous sound as you leap from one pattern to the next - mid bar.
If anyone is unfamiliar with this, the manual explains it all.

Thanks for the suggestion. I havent tried this while arranging. Got a feeling this may help.

Adam Jay

f ya can't get more than 127 steps in midi, then the best you can do is stretch those 127 steps out.

If only I could get 128 steps.....hehe. In time im sure there will be a controler that would be suitable for me. But I'm greedy. I want something thats nearly identical to an anlog console. (dedicated eq knobs, aux sends....even groups. Someday soon I hope. As much as I dislike Behringer gear their controler is good value. I used a digidesign pro control for a few weeks and of all controlers I have tried that one was theh closest in fell to a real console. pricey though.

Sweetjesus

Hey chris, have you thought about getting lots of outputs from your computer and routing them into an analogue console again ?

Yes. Actually I love analog consoles. But Im doing OK(ish) withourt a console for the moment and as mentioned above I like to keep myself mobile as I move around a lot. A console would also mean another 2 interfaces....Its still an option though and theres no doubt I would be able to do my Live on the fly mixes again.

Thanks again for all your suggestions

Cheers

basetwo · Post by **basetwo** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 6:56 pm

Chris Cowie wrote: 127

Thats obviously the reason real time fades sound crap. I wasnt aware the volume control had such low resolution. Hope this can be fixed at some point in the future.

Live supports high-resolution controller messages according to the manual. I think my BCR2000 is capable of sending them, so I'll have to check it out. Maybe someone else can comment on using this to "even out" the volume adjustments.