Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
housemusiclover
Posts: 192
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:54 pm

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by housemusiclover » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:02 pm

alexaaz wrote:Yes, that's true, but a bit restrictive no? So I can't put any tempo synced gates, LFOs or filters after my UAD stuff? I just bought the Vengeance Sidechain Compressor. It will sync to tempo, but if I put it after a bunch of UAD stuff - no good.

And to be honest, I'm finding this whole thing confusing… what about if I use the kick drum from another track as a sidechain input to Ableton's compressor, but after a bunch of UAD plugs? And what about UAD stuff that syncs to tempo?

Also, Live doesn't remove the latency compensation when a plugin is disabled, which means if I want to replay or add a new part I have to *remove* all the plugins that cause delay. In Logic, I can just enable Low Latency mode and get straight to it.

On top of that, when the plugins are disabled, Live actually offsets the midi by an even greater amount (2x) than when the plugins are enabled!

Maybe a workaround for this part of the problem is: put all effects on a separate track and route the soft synth there. When wanting to record live, route the audio out directly, avoiding the track with all the delaying plugins.

What's a workaround for the tempo synced effects? Freezing the track with the delaying plugins and then outputting that to another track which is where the tempo synced plugin is (e.g. tempo-synced sidechain compressor)? Would that work?

Thanks :-)

Alex
oh, it definitely sucks! :lol:
the kick sidechaining shouldn't be a problem in any scenario - as far as i understand.
i dont know the vengeance comp and have never heard of another comp that tempo-syncs, so no idea there.
personally i now bounce a lot more often.
but it's really only plugins that use the transport timing information which can behave weirdly, "ordinary" tempo-sync works fine even if a prior plugin introduces latency.
again, as far as i understand... :mrgreen:
been planning to try out a few scenarios myself but never got around to do it - if it sounds good etc.

Tone Deft
Posts: 23565
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Location: SF, CA

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Tone Deft » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:06 pm

I always setup plug ins as I make a set, I don't record automation until everything's already in place. I believe this has helped me without me even knowing it. automation last.

that's not a solution, it's not an excuse, just an observation.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

dude rancher
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:07 pm

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by dude rancher » Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:17 am

1 instance of omnisphere=crash today. something is terribly wrong with live at this point to be having so many crashes.

marra
Posts: 291
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:08 pm

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by marra » Sun May 08, 2011 11:36 pm

Delie wrote:Never mind, for now I can use live for simple musical-brainstorming, but I'll have to do effects/mixing in another DAW.
I'll follow

marra
Posts: 291
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:08 pm

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by marra » Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:33 pm

I'm not even sure I understand this issue properly, but my problem is that I'd like to move my large effects chains from the master channel onto return tracks, because

1. that way my effects would be easier to manage, and I'd get to control how much of an effect a particular track should receive - I mean, ain't this how it's normally done anyway?

2. Plus I hear it's best practice to leave ones master channel as clean as possible

but when I do this, there's this tiny bit of delay before the effects kick in. This was never an issue when I had my chains on the master channel - so why should it be an issue now? And, is this what this thread is all about?

The only other option I can think of (besides lowering my Output Buffer Size, which doesn't really work anyway) is one that would totally assfu** my computer - duplicating my effects chains onto every single track (with Audio Effect Racks using dry/wet chains). Don't say it has to come to that?

fx23
Posts: 798
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:23 pm

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by fx23 » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:09 am

try to change in option 'as audio buffer' vst buffer size on 32. and set your audiocard with lowest possible latency.
the thread was not exactly about that,
to summup:

live delays all audio flows depending on VSTs process latency so all audio keep sync. that's called PDC and that works.
however, it doesn't compensate individually all controls related to that audio:
modulations, automations, sync clock are not compensated of same amount, so a drift occur,cause audio is delayed but controls curves are not.so it mess the sync in a more or less drastic way as soon as there is latency involved,
wich is nearly always the case when you use 3rd party VST.

but sends is another subject that also suffer from latency, but for differents reasons.
i have no clue about that. afaik it is supposed to be only 1 sample, so you shouldn't 'hear' a change.
but i met some cases where liveset sync was highly affected.
globally avoid left-right path. if something goes to a send you shouldn't ie resend it to a normal track.

marra
Posts: 291
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:08 pm

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by marra » Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:28 am

fx23 wrote:try to change in option 'as audio buffer' vst buffer size on 32. and set your audiocard with lowest possible latency.
Do you mean the "Output Buffer Size" in Preferences > Audio > Latency? I tried that but I failed to find a value low enough not to cause that delay while at the same time not distorting the sound. My sound card is a Cirrus Logic CS4206A running on the latest MacBook Pro (Windows 7).
fx23 wrote:the thread was not exactly about that, to summup:

live delays all audio flows depending on VSTs process latency so all audio keep sync. that's called PDC and that works.
however, it doesn't compensate individually all controls related to that audio:
modulations, automations, sync clock are not compensated of same amount, so a drift occur,cause audio is delayed but controls curves are not.so it mess the sync in a more or less drastic way as soon as there is latency involved,
wich is nearly always the case when you use 3rd party VST.

but sends is another subject that also suffer from latency, but for differents reasons.
i have no clue about that. afaik it is supposed to be only 1 sample, so you shouldn't 'hear' a change.
but i met some cases where liveset sync was highly affected.
globally avoid left-right path. if something goes to a send you shouldn't ie resend it to a normal track.
Thanks mate!

fx23
Posts: 798
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:23 pm

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by fx23 » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:49 pm

in fact there are two buffer size. asio and vst.
the vst buffer is in preference/cpu, try 32 there, then on general audio interface ya were yup keep lowest without crackling.
note when i was on bootcamp i noticed an apple pgm running was causing spikes, wich prevented from getting lower latency.
the pgm was applekeyboardmanager if ya see it in process while pressing ctrl+alt+supp, try to kill it and see if
work better, maybe they fixed it now, but i could reach much lower latencies without it.

marra
Posts: 291
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:08 pm

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by marra » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:44 pm

fx23 wrote:in fact there are two buffer size. asio and vst.
the vst buffer is in preference/cpu, try 32 there, then on general audio interface ya were yup keep lowest without crackling.
note when i was on bootcamp i noticed an apple pgm running was causing spikes, wich prevented from getting lower latency.
the pgm was applekeyboardmanager if ya see it in process while pressing ctrl+alt+supp, try to kill it and see if
work better, maybe they fixed it now, but i could reach much lower latencies without it.
Works like a charm - thank you so much man !!

azmills
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:15 pm

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by azmills » Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:57 am

Okay so I just spent 252 hard earned dollars upgrading to Live Suite 8 during the 33% off sale after being away from the program & these forums for more than a couple of years.

Looking at the issues that began this thread & the responses that came on page 9 I'm not very happy right now. I use Camel Space all the time in Logic. It's one of my favorite plugins. And a plug in such as Beat Repeat is also something I would use extensively as well as others like it & CS. Playing with delays, space & time is a huge part of "my" sound.

Dom stated that CS, Beat Repeat and plugins like them function on their own but can be affected by plugins before or after them. This is unacceptable.
I'll be very upset if I have to pay more money to be able to use Live the way I had planned to.

I'm beginning to get buyers remorse. I could have purchased Stutter Edit with that money and used it in Logic. I plan to buy it eventually but it looks quite possible it may not work in Live.

Maybe I should have upgraded to Logic 9 instead. Someone please tell me these worries are unfounded.

I haven't installed yet or even opened the compressed file.
PDC should be a non issue in a DAW such as this.
Has it been fixed yet?
AZ Mills: Dual 2.7gig G5, 5gig RAM, MBP 2.2gig C2D, 4gig RAM, Novation ReMote 25, Live 8 suite, Logic Pro 8 Studio, NI Maschine 1.6, various hardware & software

housemusiclover
Posts: 192
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:54 pm

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by housemusiclover » Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:12 am

no, and won't happen in this Live version

LeifonMars
Posts: 1104
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:48 am

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by LeifonMars » Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:40 am

dbfs wrote:I love live, but honestly, with this many bugs with such senstive audio data, I don't know how any of you defend this program and its sound quality. I guess fanboys will be fanboys... :arrow:
Flaws are there, but that doesn't change the fact that there is no other DAW that allows me to do the things I do with Live: Live is the heart of my complex instrument that I play. I guess that makes me a fanboy then.
MBP OSX 10.6.8, Live 8.4, MFII, Evolver, Monomachine, Octatrack, APC40, Launchpad

Hermanus
Posts: 1648
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Location: Belgium

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Hermanus » Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:33 pm

azmills wrote:Okay so I just spent 252 hard earned dollars upgrading to Live Suite 8 during the 33% off sale after being away from the program & these forums for more than a couple of years.

Looking at the issues that began this thread & the responses that came on page 9 I'm not very happy right now. I use Camel Space all the time in Logic. It's one of my favorite plugins. And a plug in such as Beat Repeat is also something I would use extensively as well as others like it & CS. Playing with delays, space & time is a huge part of "my" sound.

Dom stated that CS, Beat Repeat and plugins like them function on their own but can be affected by plugins before or after them. This is unacceptable.
I'll be very upset if I have to pay more money to be able to use Live the way I had planned to.

I'm beginning to get buyers remorse. I could have purchased Stutter Edit with that money and used it in Logic. I plan to buy it eventually but it looks quite possible it may not work in Live.

Maybe I should have upgraded to Logic 9 instead. Someone please tell me these worries are unfounded.

I haven't installed yet or even opened the compressed file.
PDC should be a non issue in a DAW such as this.
Has it been fixed yet?
Seriously, don't blame yourself because of what you've read.

I never get bored because of such a thing.
Well Maybe I'm just an idiot and my use of the software is so basic that I never noticed this before reading this whole topic.
Or maybe I was too busy making music.
Ok sometimes I had to find some workarounds to make things work in some projects but never a flowkiller.

I'm even enjoying finding cool workarounds, call me fanboy too if you want...

Ableton crew makes its best.
Contact is always gentle and be sure they work hard to make it running good and help users.

You've just been purchasing a good program and by reading this topic, not even installing.

oh my...

Try it and see by yourself, the best way to make your own opinion.

Badger123
Posts: 82
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Location: Bristol, UK
Contact:

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Badger123 » Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:04 pm

Yeah but it's good to know the weak sides of the software you're using. If Live can't sync accurately with automation or to the song clock with plugins it's worth bearing in mind while working on projects that need sample-accuracy in this area. Thank you ninox_rufa for steering this thread and letting us know the problem in such detail.
I've not tried it yet but I wonder if freezing tracks that are drifting cures the problem as a work-around. I've not read every post in this topic. Has it been mentioned?

LukeLSB
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:17 am

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by LukeLSB » Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:36 pm

Would this be why sometimes when i have automated the filter cut off it is imperfect? Say i high pass the drumbuss before a drop before turning off the filter i often get a milisecond of unfiltered audio before the drop which makes it sound scruffy and kills the impact?

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