Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
mrobare
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by mrobare » Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:58 pm

hi

have you tried this on 64bit live?

does it fix the problem?


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ninox_rufa
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by ninox_rufa » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:27 am

Sage wrote:If you were using a limiter with lookahead before such a plugin, then of course it would do that. Using Live as a production tool, this issue isn't something I find irritating, although as a live tool with real time audio (Vocals, guitar or whatever with plugins), it is useless at present. But as to whether its a professional DAW? Try performing a live mix with an analogue desk, no recall... lots of professionals still work like that, some of the greatest sounding albums of all time were mixed like that... A true "professional" will be aware of the limitations of whatever they are using and can work around it, not throw hissy fits.
Download the CamelSpace demo. Set your tempo to 140BPM. Create a track with a basic four on the floor kick. Create a track with a drum loop and CamelSpace on it. Set it to a simple gating pattern and turn off it's other effects. Hear how out of time it is with the kick?
Or let's use your example. Create two tracks, each with a drum loop and beat repeat. On one track place a limiter in front of beat repeat. Hear the problem?

Please tell me what the work around is. How do you get these tracks in time?
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lazlo_funktek
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by lazlo_funktek » Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:44 pm

Download the CamelSpace demo. Set your tempo to 140BPM. Create a track with a basic four on the floor kick. Create a track with a drum loop and CamelSpace on it. Set it to a simple gating pattern and turn off it's other effects. Hear how out of time it is with the kick?
Or let's use your example. Create two tracks, each with a drum loop and beat repeat. On one track place a limiter in front of beat repeat. Hear the problem?

Please tell me what the work around is. How do you get these tracks in time?
From what the Ableton team said, the only work around is to make sure there are no plugins that cause a delay before a time sensitive unit such as beat repeat (or if you're just drawing creative automation that has to be tight).

Best thing I guess would be to use only Ableton native plugins on any channels where you're doing creative time stuff and make sure any plugins that cause a delay come after all of that.

ninox_rufa
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by ninox_rufa » Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:21 am

lazlo_funktek wrote:From what the Ableton team said, the only work around is to make sure there are no plugins that cause a delay before a time sensitive unit such as beat repeat (or if you're just drawing creative automation that has to be tight).

Best thing I guess would be to use only Ableton native plugins on any channels where you're doing creative time stuff and make sure any plugins that cause a delay come after all of that.
Your statement is contradictory. Avoiding doing something is NOT a workaround. Your suggestion works of course but you do realise how limiting it is yeh? You also forgot to mention not using any 3rd party plugins AT ALL that are affected by this problem. That's why I switched to Logic. It's my "workaround". :wink:
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ninox_rufa
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by ninox_rufa » Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:56 pm

Still waiting on that workaround.
Sage wrote:If you were using a limiter with lookahead before such a plugin, then of course it would do that.
Wrong. Actually other DAWs I've used do stay in time. So knowing this (being a true "professional" you should know it) and reading the claim by Ableton, wouldn't it be reasonable to expect that Live stays in time?. You fail.
Sage wrote:Using Live as a production tool, this issue isn't something I find irritating
Does that mean no one else should? Did it occur to you that other people out there use software differently to you? Fail.
Sage wrote:although as a live tool with real time audio (Vocals, guitar or whatever with plugins), it is useless at present.
If you think this timing problem is more of an issue in a Live situation because somehow being in the studio gives you more options to work around it then you don't fully understand the problem and you don't understand that it cannot be worked around. Fail.
Sage wrote:Try performing a live mix with an analogue desk, no recall...
Do you somehow know that I've never done this before? Fail.
Sage wrote:lots of professionals still work like that, some of the greatest sounding albums of all time were mixed like that...
Thankyou O Sage for your worldly advice. That's a really good point. Oh wait... no actually it's crap. Making sweeping statements about how someone can work around a problem does not prove that someone else should be able to work around another problem in a different situation. The fact that your example is audio related does not make it valid. "Hey, plenty of people have caught fish with a fishing rod. you shouldn't have any problems with that net". Do you get it? Do you realise how stupid you sound? Fail.
Sage wrote:A true "professional" will be aware of the limitations of whatever they are using and can work around it
What's with all the "professional" crap? What does mine or any user's level of professionalism have to do with a company making false claims about it's product? So what you're saying is a true professional buys a product, discovers it doesn't work as claimed and does nothing about it? How about we use your example from above but use it properly. Let's say you buy an analog mixer. Everything works fine except you notice the audio signal distorting through the sends. Huh? That's weird. Your last mixer didn't do that and the manufacturer states that the signal should be clean. "Hmmm. I could workaround it by taking the desk apart and replacing components. I'll just not worry about and say nothing because I'm a true professional." Fail.
Sage wrote:not throw hissy fits.
Hardly a hissy fit. It's called a complaint. After the bug fest that Live 8 has been it was well deserved. You do realise that Ableton changed the manual because of this thread? They also apologised and generously refunded my money. Seems they thought I had a point. Fail.


So if you had any intentions other than strutting your ego, trolling me and wasting my time you... failed. :roll:
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3dot...
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by 3dot... » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:17 pm

ninox_rufa wrote:Hardly a hissy fit. It's called a complaint. After the bug fest that Live 8 has been it was well deserved. You do realise that Ableton changed the manual because of this thread? They also apologised and generously refunded my money.
good on you...
I complained a lot and never got refunded..
although was offered to be refunded and downgrade to v7..
and offered discount coupons for stuff I don't want/need..
Live8 was a disaster (still is...) ..v7 started to show signs..
at the first year+ after the official release of 8 it was virtually unusable to me..constantly crashing...
but at least it's a stable disaster now...
it's like something you're waiting/hoping to pass but doesn't..(a bad trip)
many design flaws in addition to bugs... nasty implementations of good ideas...
I would very much like an Ableton Live that works as expected..
the session view idea is not going to be an Ableton exclusive forever after all
and Live8 is a PITA...
I will not be remembering this product for the better...
up until then I was a total fanboi..
3 years in ...I'm beginning to entertain the idea that investing my $ on this software for the long run...
could have been a mistake...
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ze2be
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by ze2be » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:53 pm

Im very curious at how the Bitwig beta handles this.
? ? ? ? ?

pencilrocket
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by pencilrocket » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:31 am

Test in the Studio One. I surely used tempo involved plugin. In both test it cancels.

-Disable-
It disables plugins and remove(or add) gap imediately to the audio stream. Then tracks are canceled each other. Enabling/Disabling while playback creates phase issue.

-Bypass-
It canceled. It doesn't add gap to the audio stream. But the on/off of the Bypass switch isn't reflected to the audio stream imediately. There seems to be some buffering and culculating beforehand to bypass gaplessly.

-Enabeling non 0 latency plugin-
If you insert high latency plugin before the tempo involved plugin and enable it the tempo involved plugin is messed by the latency.


In Live, I can confirm same result as OP's. But Live does neither add gap to the audio stream nor have lag when disable the device. So the phase issue (even when disabled non zero latency plugin) is cost to acquire these benefits I think.

I can think that the possible way to fix this issue in Live is to add 'Studio Mode' option which works like the way other host does.
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ninox_rufa
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by ninox_rufa » Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:04 am

3dot... wrote:good on you...
I complained a lot and never got refunded..
although was offered to be refunded and downgrade to v7..
and offered discount coupons for stuff I don't want/need..
I'm assuming I did because I'd talked with Ableton several times for about a year (I think) before starting the thread. During that time they kept referring to it as a bug. I don't believe the support person I spoke to was hiding it. I just think they didn't look at it closely enough. Case of bad advice.
ze2be wrote:Im very curious at how the Bitwig beta handles this.
It's not implemented (yet). They said they're still working on delay compensation and it's their intention to do it properly.

I've moved on since starting this thread. I'll post to correct someone if they think there's a work around or they're being a douche, but that's all. I don't have any interest in hassling Ableton any longer. I'll wager they've fixed it Live 9 anyway.
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madfiddler
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by madfiddler » Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:20 am

Oh great, even if they do fix this in 9.

I only bought Live 8 Suite in June this year, and to be faced with upgrade fees to fix what is a massive problem for me isn't great at all :(

Having the same problem. I'm wanting to use Live to perform music I've written (in a competitor) and basically DJ it. The latency issue is really causing me an issue.

For this sort of use, why can't they just use a system like the Rockband video games to do compensate for the latency of digital TV's.

m

vitalispopoff
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by vitalispopoff » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:30 am

As I read the whole thread, I must say, the situation with it is at least embarrassing.
To be honest - for the experimental freak like me it's not that big deal, after all it's all about looking for unpredictability of chain effects, instruments and presets, and using it as a crucial element of the production. But when it comes to having this fixed in L9 I don't actually know what to think - to cheer or to madden. As what if all that elaborated sounds disappear as soon as I open the session in L9. What about mismatched automation workarounds.

This is serious shit, and I don't want to even think of what about all the projects that are still waiting to be finished, as some of them are started yet with L6.
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B3
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by B3 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:06 pm

I learned a bit more today about unreported latency in Ableton Live using the LFOTool scope and offset features.

At a sample rate of 44.1 kHz Ableton Live adds latency equivalent to your buffer size for every 3rd party plugin you put on a track. So, if you run a 512 sample buffer you get 512 samples (or 11.6 ms) of latency for every 3rd party plugin you put on the track, even for zero latency plugins. This is true if the plugin is turned on or off. Native devices don't suffer from this latency penalty.

If you add a plugin that adds latency then you have the latency of the plugin, plus the 512 samples Ableton adds for every 3rd party plugin.

For example, with a Ableton Live set at a sample rate of 44.1 kHz and running a 512 sample buffer, create an audio channel using a clap or something with a clear transient. Then add an instance of Pro-Q 2 in Linear Phase "low" mode which has 3072 samples (about 70 ms) of latency at a sample rate of 44.1 kHz. If you drop in an instance of LFOTool after Pro-Q 2 and turn on the scope, you will see the offset. Then set LFOTool offset to -3072 and you will see there is still uncorrected offset. Add -512 samples to LFTool offset for a total of -3584 samples and you will see the unreported latency is fully corrected.
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Sonic Supreme
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Sonic Supreme » Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:31 am

B3 wrote:I learned a bit more today about unreported latency in Ableton Live using the LFOTool scope and offset features.

At a sample rate of 44.1 kHz Ableton Live adds latency equivalent to your buffer size for every 3rd party plugin you put on a track. So, if you run a 512 sample buffer you get 512 samples (or 11.6 ms) of latency for every 3rd party plugin you put on the track, even for zero latency plugins. This is true if the plugin is turned on or off. Native devices don't suffer from this latency penalty.

If you add a plugin that adds latency then you have the latency of the plugin, plus the 512 samples Ableton adds for every 3rd party plugin.

For example, with a Ableton Live set at a sample rate of 44.1 kHz and running a 512 sample buffer, create an audio channel using a clap or something with a clear transient. Then add an instance of Pro-Q 2 in Linear Phase "low" mode which has 3072 samples (about 70 ms) of latency at a sample rate of 44.1 kHz. If you drop in an instance of LFOTool after Pro-Q 2 and turn on the scope, you will see the offset. Then set LFOTool offset to -3072 and you will see there is still uncorrected offset. Add -512 samples to LFTool offset for a total of -3584 samples and you will see the unreported latency is fully corrected.
B3 thnk u for sharing this knowledge. A lot is making sense now. I normally was working always in 512 and rendering in 512. But yesterday I decided to render @ 64 and noticed a difference in the tightness. I did one with 64 audio buffer and the plug-in buffer set to "As Audio Buffer" then I also did one with 64 audio buffer and 64 plug-in buffer and that was radically off all over the place (trashed that) & finally I did one w 64 Audio buffer and Plug-in buffer set to 32 and that I believe gave me the tightest mix. I have a lot of parallel compression thru the auxes w 3rd party plugz and also have Dmg linear phase eq on a track causing all sorts of problems with the send automations on that same track. problems everywhere with this problem that son need to be rectified. I swear Ableton you've caused me a lot of grief now that i know the truth on why my mixes always sounded weird! WTF is wrong with you guys--you cant rectify this problem!!!!This is ridiculous!!! :evil:

Sonic Supreme
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Sonic Supreme » Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:34 am

B3 wrote:I learned a bit more today about unreported latency in Ableton Live using the LFOTool scope and offset features.

At a sample rate of 44.1 kHz Ableton Live adds latency equivalent to your buffer size for every 3rd party plugin you put on a track. So, if you run a 512 sample buffer you get 512 samples (or 11.6 ms) of latency for every 3rd party plugin you put on the track, even for zero latency plugins. This is true if the plugin is turned on or off. Native devices don't suffer from this latency penalty.

If you add a plugin that adds latency then you have the latency of the plugin, plus the 512 samples Ableton adds for every 3rd party plugin.

For example, with a Ableton Live set at a sample rate of 44.1 kHz and running a 512 sample buffer, create an audio channel using a clap or something with a clear transient. Then add an instance of Pro-Q 2 in Linear Phase "low" mode which has 3072 samples (about 70 ms) of latency at a sample rate of 44.1 kHz. If you drop in an instance of LFOTool after Pro-Q 2 and turn on the scope, you will see the offset. Then set LFOTool offset to -3072 and you will see there is still uncorrected offset. Add -512 samples to LFTool offset for a total of -3584 samples and you will see the unreported latency is fully corrected.
& even after switching the audio buffers to its lowest, i am sure there is still some latency somewhere. :x

TheCoil
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by TheCoil » Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:37 pm

This really frustrating, I love Ableton but I always have this doubt in the back of my mind when making music about the lack of PDC adding this loose and shitty quality to the sound. It makes it difficult to ever feel fully confident in what you're putting out.

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