Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Jstz
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:29 am

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Jstz » Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:27 pm

lol, I keep reading "BUG" bug refers to something that was mist or that can be fixed. ....This is not a BUG ....Ableton is an Amateur DAW. They obviously dont care.... Theve made enough money (I believe) to hire the best of the best 'Programers (or whatever the title is) to make there product just as clean and Profesional as Protools or Logic. All they do instead is try and hide it.

Its Bullshit......

Last night i just gained another level of knowledge and experience, ....Now more problems are arising that are simply pathetic. ..LATENCY LATENCY LATENCY when you try and do any serious work with third party plugs.

What if I dont here the Latency on a return effect, and continue to resample thing etc etc etc. In the end ALL THE LITTLE things add up to 1 big sound of CRAP. And its not the producers fault.... its ABLETON. But it makes you think your doing something wrong.... or you just suck lol.

I tryd Moving to Logic for awhile.. It sounds SOOOOO clean, Everything is just PRISTINE ...thats do to REAL automatic latency correction.... Im not talking about any EQ or Sound of the actual samples, Im talking about the Sequencer doing whats its supposed to do... not just LOOKING like its doing whats its supposed to do.

But Abletons workflow is really Wonderful, And Im locked in comfortably. But im really trying to change that, as with any producer/engineer that gets to a certain level.

Fuckin amateur . Hate bieng lied to. especially in a DAW...not saying something is the same as lying folks.

p.s. Only CONSOLIDATE if you want the audio to be Normalized. No matter what everytime... and its NOT in the manual... Thats pretty amateur if you ask me lol.

regretfullySaid
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by regretfullySaid » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:42 pm

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Jstz
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Jstz » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:15 pm

....lol. If a little happens everywere in the end its going to degrade your production by a pretty large amount. ....but know, if you dont care about sounding like a pro/or past a drag and drop audio sound, than it doesnt matter.

pina
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Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:12 am

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by pina » Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:51 pm

Seriously pretty angry about this. I'm angry at the fact that I had to just happen across an internet thread to learn this. That's all great and well that Ableton came clean about this here, but this really is something that should be more common knowledge outside of an internet forum at this point. Especially with the ubiquity of third party plugins these days. So basically, Live is useless for mixing if you primarily use third party plugins like I do. This was a recent turn for me in the past year, and its caused countless headaches trying to figure out what was going wrong with my mixes. That is completely unacceptable for a DAW. Live certainly has its perks when it comes to workflow, but those perks become pointless for me knowing that it can't perform one of the most basic tasks that a DAW simply just should be capable of at this point. And it is insulting to have to take the extra time to figure out workarounds for something so basic. This means no matter its perks, you will always absolutely require a second DAW to finish your work. I would rather just turn over all of my work to a fully capable DAW. I guess this makes it official. Logic, here I come.

simmerdown
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by simmerdown » Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:14 pm

8O

RCUS
Posts: 277
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by RCUS » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:58 pm

revisiting this topic. would low latency audio interfaces such as RME PCI cards yield improved performance for this issue in Live? having a difficult time understanding buffer vs VST latency in this regard.

also, would adjusting the track delay per track remedy this? by 'track delay' i mean the box at the bottom of each lane in session view.

apologies if this was already mentioned, scanned the thread quickly.

nopattern
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:28 pm

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by nopattern » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:36 am

why not just turn off delay compensation and use a plugin at the end of the effects chain to manually compensate the delay. i understand we want to be lazy and not deal with this, but if it comes to getting work done don't let it hold you back. voxengo offers a free plugin to do exactly this job. people have been making tight records on DAW's with no ADC for along time. you can also try using the metronome :wink:

RCUS
Posts: 277
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:31 am

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by RCUS » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:49 am

nopattern wrote:why not just turn off delay compensation and use a plugin at the end of the effects chain to manually compensate the delay. i understand we want to be lazy and not deal with this, but if it comes to getting work done don't let it hold you back. voxengo offers a free plugin to do exactly this job. people have been making tight records on DAW's with no ADC for along time. you can also try using the metronome :wink:
i like this approach too :!:

i'll have to check this out, i didn't know such a plugin existed thanks brotha

petit nuage
Posts: 431
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by petit nuage » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:19 am

PERFECT PLUGS DELAY COMPENSATION plus bounce in place audio/destructive editing audio editor's like, are ESSENTIALS and my MAINS wishes and hopes for live 9
also a convolution device (without latency if possible..héhé) with a good selections of vintage preamps,reverbs,qes ,comps etc...

autoslicing in arrangement view, based on grid and transients, plusto have the possibility to select and apply some grooves like in midi to some audio samples/snippets, on a audio track in arrangement (not audio consolidation + groove...more like midi events), would be welcomed too :wink:

Grandmasterbird
Posts: 80
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Location: Oxfordshire, UK

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Grandmasterbird » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:21 pm

Oh dear.

What are you doing about this Ableton?

Please fix it!

Thank you!

ninox_rufa
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:26 am

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by ninox_rufa » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:13 pm

nopattern wrote:why not just turn off delay compensation and use a plugin at the end of the effects chain to manually compensate the delay. i understand we want to be lazy and not deal with this, but if it comes to getting work done don't let it hold you back. voxengo offers a free plugin to do exactly this job. people have been making tight records on DAW's with no ADC for along time. you can also try using the metronome :wink:
Actually you don't understand. Lazy has nothing to do with it. I've said it several times in this thread and I'll say it again for your benefit. "There is no solution". If you think you have one then you don't understand the problem. A plugin like Voxengo Latency Delay does not fix it. In any case that particular plugin requires a DAW to have it's latency compensation turned on.

As a point of interest Ableton have since provided a description in the manual regarding the limitation:
"Tempo-synced effects and other devices that get timing information from Live's internal clock may sound out of sync if they are placed in a device chain after devices which cause delay."
MBP 2.3GHz QCore i7 4GB | Ultralite mk3 | 10.7.4 | Logic Pro 9.1.6

3dot...
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by 3dot... » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:02 pm

also..
Lives' own devices are acting up on the returns..

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=177073


that...plus...
the 'm4l midi devices adding delay' bug..

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=144221
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lazlo_funktek
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by lazlo_funktek » Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:15 pm

Okay I'm starting to understand this more now.

I use Ozone 5, which is one plugin that does introduce these problems if an instance is used early on in a chain (i.e. on a group/bus). I guess I'll stick to just using it on the master.

What would be good is to know a bit more about the latencies introduced by the various different plugins and whether they're always the same or whether they wander around a little depending on a load of different factors. Does anyone know a bit about this?

regretfullySaid
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by regretfullySaid » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:48 am

You'llprobably get some great answers if you ask at kvraudio.com since that place is a developer have but it also depends on how Live deals with it so it orobably depends on both the plug-in and live. There is a plugin that's called Inspector iirc that can give you some stats also.
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Sage
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Sage » Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:08 pm

ninox_rufa wrote:"Tempo-synced effects and other devices that get timing information from Live's internal clock may sound out of sync if they are placed in a device chain after devices which cause delay."
If you were using a limiter with lookahead before such a plugin, then of course it would do that. Using Live as a production tool, this issue isn't something I find irritating, although as a live tool with real time audio (Vocals, guitar or whatever with plugins), it is useless at present. But as to whether its a professional DAW? Try performing a live mix with an analogue desk, no recall... lots of professionals still work like that, some of the greatest sounding albums of all time were mixed like that... A true "professional" will be aware of the limitations of whatever they are using and can work around it, not throw hissy fits.

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