Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
fx23
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by fx23 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:33 pm

dinaiz wrote:Ok just to be clear :
track 1 : sample -> deactivated beat repeat
track 2 : sample -> deactivated camel space -> deactivated beat repeat -> utility

totally cancels !
you didn't get the point, of courese they cancel here cause as not active, beat reapeat won't suffer of clock offset, just do same test with them on.

dinaiz
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by dinaiz » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:50 pm

fx23 wrote:
dinaiz wrote:Ok just to be clear :
track 1 : sample -> deactivated beat repeat
track 2 : sample -> deactivated camel space -> deactivated beat repeat -> utility

totally cancels !
you didn't get the point, of courese they cancel here cause as not active, beat reapeat won't suffer of clock offset, just do same test with them on.
Maybe I didn't get the point yeah, but what's your exact protocol ? Coz I can do whatever I want I always end with cancellation. I can use beat repeat or autopan, on or off. As long as I setup the plugin to have no effect (like auto pan amount = 0%), I have a cancelation

fx23
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by fx23 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:27 pm

yes but when man use an effect, the aim is to have an effect, otherwise it's useless no? :)

you can do the 2 following tests:

A) a track with a sample---> utility. go in clip modulation and draw a gate to let pass each 1/4th with the pencil (utility gain enveloppe)
clone the track and add a high latency plugin before utility. the vst beeing on or off result: they won't cancel, and autom is out of sync.

B) a track with sample---->AutoPan set on 1/4 gate.
same cloned track this time with as well a high latency vst before the autopan. Booth autopans actives and same settings
results: tracks won't cancel, track B lfo is out of sync.


(here my high latency vst is Fabfilter pro Q set in linearphase, but im pretty sure using live compressor with 3ms pelook give same results, gonn atest tonight)

mavamel
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by mavamel » Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:30 pm

Why didn't any of the developers respond to this thread ?

People actually asked some valid question.

MY TEST works like this:
1) open your last project and put one kickdrum or beat and one bass line on 2 seperate channels.
The more tracks you will use, the more you can hear a difference.

2)
Render an audio file of the two channels playing together, (preferably getting layered)
from both Logic and Ableton (you can always download the demo version)

3)Now listen carefully in an adept environment ( or high quality headphones ) to both files.
The file that was interpolated (merged) by Logic's mixer will always sound cleaner more crisp = impact, punch, definition.

If you claim to not hear a difference, you've simply been cranking up the volume way too high and long.

This should not demonstrate which of the two DAW's is the best to use, just clearly tells you which one is best to render your mixes with.
Ableton beats Logic's cold metal ass regarding creative flow and inspiration.
We love rewire.

Just my 10 cents

Greets

nopattern
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by nopattern » Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:27 pm

i was using ableton live the other day, then i went and took a shit...

they nulled :wink:

Khazul
Posts: 3185
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Reading, UK

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Khazul » Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:33 pm

mavamel wrote:Why didn't any of the developers respond to this thread ?

People actually asked some valid question.

MY TEST works like this:
1) open your last project and put one kickdrum or beat and one bass line on 2 seperate channels.
The more tracks you will use, the more you can hear a difference.

2)
Render an audio file of the two channels playing together, (preferably getting layered)
from both Logic and Ableton (you can always download the demo version)

3)Now listen carefully in an adept environment ( or high quality headphones ) to both files.
The file that was interpolated (merged) by Logic's mixer will always sound cleaner more crisp = impact, punch, definition.

If you claim to not hear a difference, you've simply been cranking up the volume way too high and long.

This should not demonstrate which of the two DAW's is the best to use, just clearly tells you which one is best to render your mixes with.
Ableton beats Logic's cold metal ass regarding creative flow and inspiration.
We love rewire.

Just my 10 cents

Greets
You want to render a few seconds from each and post 24 bit wav files somewhere? Just curious :)
Nothing to see here - move along!

Tone Deft
Posts: 23766
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Location: SF, CA

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Tone Deft » Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:40 pm

mavamel wrote:Why didn't any of the developers respond to this thread ?

People actually asked some valid question.

MY TEST works like this:
1) open your last project and put one kickdrum or beat and one bass line on 2 seperate channels.
The more tracks you will use, the more you can hear a difference.

2)
Render an audio file of the two channels playing together, (preferably getting layered)
from both Logic and Ableton (you can always download the demo version)

3)Now listen carefully in an adept environment ( or high quality headphones ) to both files.
The file that was interpolated (merged) by Logic's mixer will always sound cleaner more crisp = impact, punch, definition.

If you claim to not hear a difference, you've simply been cranking up the volume way too high and long.

This should not demonstrate which of the two DAW's is the best to use, just clearly tells you which one is best to render your mixes with.
Ableton beats Logic's cold metal ass regarding creative flow and inspiration.
We love rewire.

Just my 10 cents

Greets
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"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

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fx23
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by fx23 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:43 pm

yes, nobody here said livemixdown is different from logic, we speak about latency compensation. there are lot of mixed terminology.
Ill post a .Als later this night with a simple setup so anybody can catch what we speak about.

Tone Deft
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Tone Deft » Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:45 pm

ninox_rufa wrote:I've been trying to figure out why my production is not sounding as tight as it should
could you post a song of yours so we can hear how close you're getting to begin with?

interesting find with the plug ins. first thing that comes to mind is the situation with sound cards not being able to report their latency with accuracy. I imagine a plug in would have a known latency though.


Khazul wrote:Just reminded of one litle thing I liked in cubase - there is an info window that lists all the plugins along with their requested latency compensation value.

Always wish Live had something like this as often with certain complex routings I often choose low latency plugins rather than higher quality for just this reason.
And while on the subject there is there extreme annoyance of the play line never actually matching what your are hearing if (for example) you have high latency plugins, for eq a common post mix chain of three or more UAD plugins.

So yes +100000000000 to fixing this ASAP and providing some latency information about the plugin you are using as I can easily imagine situation that Live could never actually compensate for, but where a combination of knowing the routing and knowing the plugin latency could help me sort it out.

BTW - its always a good idea to disable all sends that you don't need - in fact I wish there was a button the would just blanket disable all non-zero sends as its a pain to go through all all when you add a new return track.
nice post. I feel like dropping this in the features request forum.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

Dell Inspiron 15 7000, Live 10.1, Win10 Home, Edirol UA101, APC40, Remote SL, SPD-SX, mic, POD500HDX, JX305, Nova
soundcloud.com/tone-deft

Khazul
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Location: Reading, UK

Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Khazul » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:36 pm

fx23 wrote:yes, nobody here said livemixdown is different from logic, we speak about latency compensation. there are lot of mixed terminology.
Ill post a .Als later this night with a simple setup so anybody can catch what we speak about.
To be fair, someone (was it this or another thread - might even have been you? :)) did post about the difference in latency compensation with automation which is also borked in Live, which when I first read the quoted post - assumed that was a what he was on about... but re-reading - looks like a generic logic sums btter than live type post...

Either way - be useful to actually get some short wav files to examine out of curiosity :)
Nothing to see here - move along!

fx23
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by fx23 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:53 pm

to sumup: simply mixing a kick and bass, (as i understand fom the quote) in booth daws has nothing do do with latency compensation, they should (theorically) sound exactly the same imo, exept if logic has a better summing (fairly possible but certainly ultra subtle if so), but personally i never said that and would like has well to hear A-B tests.

now, doing stuff that rely on PDC (using 3rd party or build in device that need buffers) then using modulations, automation or syncedFX later in the chain
in live results in those modulations being out of sync, when it shouldn't if latency was properly reported, and this has a much much drastic impact on sound.
Users seems to report it don't behave like this in logic. I can clearly post a simple als or audio piece that prove live PDC is corrupt,
now would love to see a logic/PT or other user poset the equivalent test to compare..

Khazul
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Khazul » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:27 pm

fx23 wrote:to sumup: simply mixing a kick and bass, (as i understand fom the quote) in booth daws has nothing do do with latency compensation, they should (theorically) sound exactly the same imo, exept if logic has a better summing (fairly possible but certainly ultra subtle if so), but personally i never said that and would like has well to hear A-B tests.

now, doing stuff that rely on PDC (using 3rd party or build in device that need buffers) then using modulations, automation or syncedFX later in the chain
in live results in those modulations being out of sync, when it shouldn't if latency was properly reported, and this has a much much drastic impact on sound.
Users seems to report it don't behave like this in logic. I can clearly post a simple als or audio piece that prove live PDC is corrupt,
now would love to see a logic/PT or other user poset the equivalent test to compare..
Oh can easily repro the out-of-sync automation :)

As for the summing thing - exactly why I wanted to examine a couple of short wav files where a difference is claimed to be audiable ;)
Nothing to see here - move along!

cabletone
Posts: 337
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by cabletone » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:40 pm

nopattern wrote:i was using ableton live the other day, then i went and took a shit...

they nulled :wink:
did you reverse its phase?

fx23
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by fx23 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:17 pm

so , in cases some wanna test by themself, i made a routing .als that shows and explain the above discuted PDC issues.

http://rapidshare.com/files/443477011/P ... roject.rar

there is a .txt explain in the RAR. the test rely on FABFILTER PRO Q VST you can get as demo if not have it,

or replace by a known high latency VST, or chain few lower latency VSTs.

I could succesfully reproduce on 3 computers, one mac and 2 PC, and different 3rdparty VST,

so for me it clearly proves Live PDC is faulty...and need to be fixed in L9!!!!!!!

dinaiz
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by dinaiz » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:46 pm

Ok good point, I can reproduce too ! (I had to use a native instuments compressor with lookahead, cause I found out that most plugins I have are actually 0 latency !)

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