Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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arafel
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by arafel » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:48 am

8O
Just tried the PDC-test set (got from Rapidshare - TY).

It does indeed show that with Delay Compensation activated the two tracks (Normal and Latency) to not cancel.
Delete the FabFilter Q (high latency) plug and they do cancel.

Turn off Delay Compensation.. they do cancel.

Holy Frak.... essential to know.

I had encounterd this discrepancy between Delay Compensated audio and not compensated automation... using Motu Ethno (with Convolution verb on).. but dismissed it as an Ethno thing (one among many). I adjusted the automation to work around it and moved on.

I'll keep my ears tuned for this phenomena.
2.8ghz Quad Mac, Live 9.77, Remote25, Maschine 1, Fa-66 optical link, Samson 65a. Dog hair.. lots.

T.I.M.
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by T.I.M. » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:39 pm

I didnt get to read this whole thread. Nudging tracks doesnt help?

fx23
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by fx23 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:47 pm

nope

T.I.M.
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by T.I.M. » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:53 pm

fx23 wrote:nope
8O Lemme go read this whole thread....

Tone Deft
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Tone Deft » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:56 pm

T.I.M. wrote:
fx23 wrote:nope
8O Lemme go read this whole thread....
take it from me, you should. you'll see why I write that. ;)
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housemusiclover
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by housemusiclover » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:23 pm

wow, good to know...
quite stunning to hear how audio damgage replicant sounds behind some latency introducing plugins. :cry:
time to give reaper another try.

edit: didn't do any phase cancellation test, i just put replicant (beat repeat like effect) behind some high latency plugins in reaper and there the timing stays rock solid :|

Khazul
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Khazul » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:57 pm

BTW - the automation issue also applies even if you chain audio from one track to another and then apply the automation to the first plugin. Because the audio is allready delayed by then but the automation is allways tied to the play position.

Thought it might be worth a try as a possible workaround, but no joy.
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Khazul
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Khazul » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:27 am

OK - got my Cubase 6 upgrade through today and now have it up and running and so just tried doing an automation latency test as follows

- Create an audio track and stick some *continuous* audio (ie NOT something intermittent like a drum loop) in it, set cubase to loop over the audio.
- Now draw in a square wave automation of the track level fader (square wave was roughly on for a beat, off for a beat)
- Now duplicate the track. (It is importnat to duplicate rather than create the same again to absolutely ensure that the automations are identical).
- Phase invert the duplicate track.
- Play them both - and ensure that they do infact cancel each other - also mute them alternatively to confirm they are in fact both playing correctly.
- Unmute both, should be back to silence.
- Now stick a non-zero latency plugin in (I used camelspace because some of us have been using it to check live).
- Now play again - in C6 they still cancel each other. As a sanity check again - alternatively mute both to ensure both are infact pulsing their audio and aint justt silent.

The reason for square wave automation is that any mismated in the automation result in very audiable spikes.

Possible result variations in other hosts:
1. Silence - both audio and automation is correctly compensated - working as it should.
2. Very short audio spikes - audio is correctly compensated, but the automation is not - so a partial failure. (This is what I get in Live usually).
3. Continuous sound - audio is not latency compensated - it total failure (Sometimes get this in Live).

It would appear (unless someone can find a flaw in the test) that Cubase 6 DOES in fact apply latency compensation to automation (it behaves as result type 1 above).

Can anyone repeat this in logic/sonar/repear etc out of interest?
Last edited by Khazul on Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:51 am, edited 4 times in total.
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ninox_rufa
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by ninox_rufa » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:30 am

So how does Logic fair regarding the 'sync' issue?

I just gave it a thorough test. I put CamelSpace on two tracks and used Logic's Gain plug to reverse the phase on one of the tracks. I put not one or two but a dozen assorted 3rd party plugins in the chain on one track. This would create some major latency.

Track 1: Audio -> Twelve 3rd party plugins -> CamelSpace
Track 2: Audio -> CamelSpace -> Gain

The result? Perfect phase cancellation. I then tried Replicant and Predator FX's Gator effect instead of CamelSpace. Perfect phase cancellation. Logic is tight as.

I will test it's automation compensation later. I'm confident it will be the same.
MBP 2.3GHz QCore i7 4GB | Ultralite mk3 | 10.7.4 | Logic Pro 9.1.6

ninox_rufa
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by ninox_rufa » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:38 am

Khazul wrote:- Now stick a non-zero latency plugin in (I used camelspace because some of us have been using it to check live).
?
I think I need to clarify this.

The test you did is perfect. But you can use any 3rd party plugin (as long as it doesn't have zero latency which I understand is rare anyway).
The only reason I suggest using CamelSpace is to test the 'sync' problem by putting the plugin on the end of a chain. This is different to testing automation compensation problem which you did above. These two problems do seem to come from the same cause though.

Hope this is clear :)
MBP 2.3GHz QCore i7 4GB | Ultralite mk3 | 10.7.4 | Logic Pro 9.1.6

Khazul
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Khazul » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:47 am

ninox_rufa wrote:
Khazul wrote:- Now stick a non-zero latency plugin in (I used camelspace because some of us have been using it to check live).
?
I need to clarify this.

The test you did is perfect. But you can use any 3rd party plugin (as long as it doesn't have zero latency which I understand is rare anyway).
The only reason I suggested using CamelSpace is to test the 'sync' problem by putting it on the end of a chain. This is different to testing automation compensation which you did above. These two problems do seem to have the same cause though. Hope this is clear :)
For reproducing the automation compenation issue it does not need ot be a third party plugin - use Live compressor on 10ms lookahead for eg
Using the same plugin in several hosts is however useful as eventually it eliminates the possibility that the plugin itself is not reporting its latency correctly (because in one host the test will eventually work properly), so that means test with a 3rd party plugin to be sure.

Testing just simple latency compensation without automation usually works for me, but I know that its inconsitent - ie sometimes it doesnt.
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ninox_rufa
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by ninox_rufa » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:49 am

housemusiclover wrote:wow, good to know...
quite stunning to hear how audio damgage replicant sounds behind some latency introducing plugins. :cry:
time to give reaper another try.
Exactly! And the thing is that everyone's production will have this problem to some degree. It applies to all the LFO's in your plugins too. People may not notice it but it's going to affect the quality. The only exception is if you produce very minimal tracks.
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Khazul
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Khazul » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:52 am

ninox_rufa wrote:
housemusiclover wrote:wow, good to know...
quite stunning to hear how audio damgage replicant sounds behind some latency introducing plugins. :cry:
time to give reaper another try.
Exactly! And the thing is that everyone's production will have this problem to some degree. It applies to all the LFO's in your plugins too. People may not notice it but it's going to affect the quality. The only exception is if you produce very minimal tracks.
OK - so 99% of Live users wont notice this then? :P
Nothing to see here - move along!

housemusiclover
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by housemusiclover » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:55 am

ninox_rufa wrote:
housemusiclover wrote:The only exception is if you produce very minimal tracks.
i do! glad to have an excuse for not noticing this fail... :mrgreen:

edit: anyone checked other Live versions than the latest? hopefully it's a bug introduced sometime and not a "feature"...

ninox_rufa
Posts: 94
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by ninox_rufa » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:06 am

Khazul wrote:Testing just simple latency compensation without automation usually works for me, but I know that its inconsitent - ie sometimes it doesnt.
Sorry but I think you might be missing the point. When I talk about the 'sync' issue I'm not talking about simple latency issues with plugins.

Live correctly adjusts the audio to compensate for plugin latency (this is expected and Live does it perfectly) but Live does not adjust the timing of 'sync' type plugins by the same amount as it has adjusted the audio. This is the main reason for me starting this thread and it's a much bigger problem than drawn/recorded automation because there is no workaround.

Khazul wrote:OK - so 99% of Live users wont notice this then?
:) Yeh I suspect it's why such a major flaw hasn't had much attention before. Not that I've got anything against minimal. Each to their own.
MBP 2.3GHz QCore i7 4GB | Ultralite mk3 | 10.7.4 | Logic Pro 9.1.6

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