Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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ninox_rufa
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by ninox_rufa » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:09 am

housemusiclover wrote:edit: anyone checked other Live versions than the latest? hopefully it's a bug introduced sometime and not a "feature"...
By it's nature it's not a bug. It's a failing with the software. There is no way that Ableton don't know about it. They made the decision to not account for it.
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Khazul
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Khazul » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:10 am

ninox_rufa wrote::) Yeh I suspect it's why such a major flaw hasn't had much attention before. Not that I've got anything against minimal. Each to their own.
But the reality is in a complex track, something is wierd you you can either fix it quickly, or you mask it quickly somehow (so it sounds fine in the mix), I never bother to actually stop and fully investigate as then you completely loose the plot on what you are actually doing :)

The was a time when I would investigate thing until it dawned on me that I never actually ever got anything done due to the distraction it causes.
I think about the worst case of masking something bad like this was actually giving up completely, and then doing a copy and paste job on the final bounced track to erase the problem :)
Nothing to see here - move along!

Tone Deft
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:14 am

ninox_rufa wrote:
housemusiclover wrote:edit: anyone checked other Live versions than the latest? hopefully it's a bug introduced sometime and not a "feature"...
By it's nature it's not a bug. It's a failing with the software. There is no way that Ableton don't know about it. They made the decision to not account for it.
not to be an apologist but I've written software and then not tested the feature afterwards AND it slipped past QC and got into the field. either way, they done screwed up and users are still finding blatant bugs this long after The Big Bug Fix Of Oh-Ten.

are Live's native plug ins affected by this? sorry if I missed that point earlier.
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fx23
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by fx23 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:16 am

yeah, booth sync and modulation are same pb anyway, result is out of sync.

@khazul good to test, but to be sure the test is flawless we need to be sure camel space is not a 0 latency plug.
linear phazes eq are the best to test imo cause they fatally have inherent very high latency wich make very easy to spot things.
maybe we could find a freeware or demo of such eq we could all use as reference test? could you test that with pro Q?
however note i don't experience pb with live own compressor in 10ms in my tests, the autom stay in sync, what did you notice,
in what case/tests/routing schemes? here sample---->comp10ms--->utility, if i modulate utility, it's still sync on grid,
and it will cancel with phased dry.

@housemusiclover: afaik it's not a recent bug, it has always be like that in live since pdc has been introduced, around V5 if i
correctly remember.

edit: @Tone: My personal test seem to reveal lives own devices are not affected, exept if there is a vst before them.

ninox_rufa
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by ninox_rufa » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:26 am

edit: @Tone: My personal test seem to reveal lives own devices are not affected, exept if there is a vst before them.
So in fact yes Live's plugins are affected. Just indirectly.
CamelSpace is not zero latency. In fact CS's own latency is large enough that it's gating effect is noticeably out of time without having to put any third party plugins in front of it. CS's gating is unusable in Live because of this.
not to be an apologist but I've written software and then not tested the feature afterwards AND it slipped past QC and got into the field. either way, they done screwed up and users are still finding blatant bugs this long after The Big Bug Fix Of Oh-Ten.
A bug is a mistake. This is not a mistake. It is a decision by Ableton a long time ago. And they have continued to decide not to implement it. They're more than welcome to tell me I'm wrong about this. So far their silence speaks volumes.
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housemusiclover
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by housemusiclover » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:32 am

fx23 wrote:@housemusiclover: afaik it's not a recent bug, it has always be like that in live since pdc has been introduced, around V5 if i correctly remember.
we should still scream BUG at the top of our lungs though - i've been planning to skip Live 9 and want it fixed in 8 (of course i had planned to skip 6, 7 and 8 as well...)

ninox_rufa
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by ninox_rufa » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:34 am

housemusiclover wrote:
We should still scream BUG at the top of our lungs though - i've been planning to skip Live 9 and want it fixed in 8 (of course i had planned to skip 6, 7 and 8 as well...)
No way! If anything we should scream "LIARS". What the manual claims is a blatant lie.
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seattletruth
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by seattletruth » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:39 am

ninox_rufa wrote:
housemusiclover wrote:
We should still scream BUG at the top of our lungs though - i've been planning to skip Live 9 and want it fixed in 8 (of course i had planned to skip 6, 7 and 8 as well...)
No way! If anything we should scream "LIARS". What the manual claims is a blatant lie.

....Busted!

Tone Deft
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:43 am

scutheotaku wrote:
ninox_rufa wrote:So far their silence speaks volumes.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem like it's Ableton's policy to respond to forum posts like this? And didn't they respond to the original bug report?
it's not policy at all.

be cool, be adults, be respectful and they might chime in. thanks to 3phase's crappy attitude they're less likely to respond to users' complaints.

they want this fixed too. some of you guys make money from Live, ALL of the people at Ableton make money from Live.
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Tone Deft
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:02 am

:lol: yeah.

maybe, maybe not. the CEO of the company put a sticky at the top of the forum announcing that their new flagship product was so buggy that they're stopping all new product development to fix it. that shows some humility. I believe that they can take the criticism in stride. this sounds strange but they've gotta be happy that this was uncovered. that is, if they didn't know about it all along. who knows...

it's the interweb, 'fail' is part of the regular vernacular. it might be best to not change the title, I'd bet they're well aware of the thread and know it by name.
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fx23
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by fx23 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:15 am

ask henke why he uses only live devices and produces in pt?

na sorry tone, but don't think a second it's a not visible bug just discovered, it's a concept flaw they now they
would bypass from start. they delivered the miimum to get 'PDC' sticker, but in terms of musicians real uses they
made the minimum, worst scenario in terms of musical results.
TBH im really suprised on how so many never noticed that, no claiming im high producer or something else,
but i would'nt count the times i had to offset autopans to compensate.

it's pretty equivalent to autom to session, you can't call it 'bug', it's a 'flaw', a years old flaw...
Last edited by fx23 on Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Khazul
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Khazul » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:19 am

I guess were at the point were we reproduce a constent failure and what is IMHO and inconsitent failure and in both case we have detailed test cases. Repro in other DAW is more about curiosity and to confirm whther or not live is behind the curve. (If nothing else delt with automation properly, it become a hard argument).

So I guess bug this entire thread (minus the title ;)).
Or even PM nic with a link to it.
Nothing to see here - move along!

ninox_rufa
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by ninox_rufa » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:23 am

Yep it seems Ableton have backed away from the forums over the last 18 months. It's unfortunate that the raft of bugs in Live 8 have created this hostility towards them by some of their users. But that's the consequences of releasing software like this (that people have a huge investment in) prematurely. Not saying they deserve it. No one does. Just the way it is. And at then end of the day it's the CEO that makes the final decision, not the developers. We have no idea what they think.

scutheotaku wrote:I guess what I meant was that I doubt they will respond to topics like this. I mean, look at the title.
The topic is more important than bugs (of which I'm still experiencing my fair share btw). Ableton haven't been honest and they've had a long time to rectify this shortcoming. I think it's something anyone who's thinking of buying the software for production needs to know about. It might save them from the position I'm in now. The title is accurate and it gets people's attention.

Tone Deft wrote: the CEO of the company put a sticky at the top of the forum announcing that their new flagship product was so buggy that they're stopping all new product development to fix it. that shows some humility.
There have been many threads asking for an update regarding this. If Ableton don't follow up on it I think they risk making Gerhard's statement look more like a PR exercise.
Last edited by ninox_rufa on Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tone Deft
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:40 am

fx23 wrote:ask henke why he uses only live devices and produces in pt?
yeah, and that's the creepy stuff I'm talking about.

do as you like, just my two cents as I kill time at work.
na sorry tone, but don't think a second it's a not visible bug just discovered, it's a concept flaw they now they would bypass from start. they delivered the miimum to get 'PDC' sticker, but in terms of musicians real uses they made the minimum, worst scenario.
I rarely say this if ever but it seems to me to be a simple feature to implement, they just screwed it up. as Khazul pointed out, other DAWs show you a list of required latency for 3rd party plug ins, so clearly it's part of the VST/AU standard to make plugin latency part of the software interface. so, read the value, adjust an audio buffer. every track his its own track delay so you know the audio has to come together into a single point where this buffer can reside.

I don't see some conspiracy theory about delivering the bare minimum just to be sleezy. IMO you can villify them for the OUTRAGEOUS cost of entry for Live or taking away share or any number of other things. IMO this is too blatant of an audio quality bug to be OK with shipping. you seriously think there was a meeting where someone said "yes, it's OK to not adjust for a plug in's latency"???? I find that ridiculous, LOL you do too!!!

meh, we're just picking apart people we don't know. armchair software design, hate it.
Khazul wrote:I guess were at the point were we reproduce a constent failure and what is IMHO and inconsitent failure and in both case we have detailed test cases. Repro in other DAW is more about curiosity and to confirm whther or not live is behind the curve. (If nothing else delt with automation properly, it become a hard argument).
as an onlooker to the thread I found that interesting in that it shows that this can be done, it's not the plug-ins' fault and that other DAWs have taken care of it.
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Sounds of Samsara
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Sounds of Samsara » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:27 am

Hello, long term lurker here. I just want to point out that this is and has been a known issue. I didn't write the post in the following link, but found it after reading through the previous posts on this board. Scroll about halfway down the page to the long post by "nopattern" (ignore all the other "which sounds better" junk beforehand).

http://www.idmforums.com/showthread.php?t=54715

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