Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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ninox_rufa
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by ninox_rufa » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:39 am

fx23 wrote:it's pretty equivalent to autom to session, you can't call it 'bug', it's a 'flaw', a years old flaw...
Well I'd like to make the distinction that Ableton don't pretend Live has automation to session :)
Tone Deft wrote:I rarely say this if ever but it seems to me to be a simple feature to implement, they just screwed it up.
I fail to see how you design a DAW and do the thousands of hours of planning and coding required for delay compensation and somehow overlook the fact that clock synced plugins will be out of time. A bug is something that is introduced unwillingly during coding. This is not what has happened here.
Tone Deft wrote:I don't see some conspiracy theory about delivering the bare minimum just to be sleezy.
Fx23 didn't mention conspiracy. Your use of that word and the word sleazy just tarnishes fx23 and detracts from the point we're trying to make. It was simply a design decision by Ableton. I'm sure Ableton are quiet capable of telling me otherwise if they wish to.
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LoopStationZebra
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by LoopStationZebra » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:40 am

Sounds of Samsara wrote:Hello, long term lurker here. I just want to point out that this is and has been a known issue. I didn't write the post in the following link, but found it after reading through the previous posts on this board. Scroll about halfway down the page to the long post by "nopattern" (ignore all the other "which sounds better" junk beforehand).

http://www.idmforums.com/showthread.php?t=54715

Absolutely excellent post there....

Thanks for that link.

Never been a more clear and thoughtful post on the subject.
I came for the :lol:
But stayed for the :x

Khazul
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Khazul » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:44 am

Tone Deft wrote:I rarely say this if ever but it seems to me to be a simple feature to implement, they just screwed it up. as Khazul pointed out, other DAWs show you a list of required latency for 3rd party plug ins, so clearly it's part of the VST/AU standard to make plugin latency part of the software interface. so, read the value, adjust an audio buffer. every track his its own track delay so you know the audio has to come together into a single point where this buffer can reside.
Thats kind of it, but as ever its far more complex in practice, but still best illustrated by simply diagramming out all the audio paths of a very simple set with boxes for the plugins and numbers in the for their latencies and sum them along the path. Then you basical write on the remain patth lines the comensatin values required to ensure that at places where paths join up - the latencies all total the same. Its the kind of thing that at first glance would allmost seem like solving a sudoku puzzle to many, but is actually quite easy to solve in code.

Automations and plugin clocks are different problems as they may be implemented in quite different ways by different DAWs.
Nothing to see here - move along!

LoopStationZebra
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by LoopStationZebra » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:52 am

ninox_rufa wrote:It was simply a design decision by Ableton.
+1. For exactly the reason that nopattern spells out in his post: Live is a live tool and the goal is to keep sound coming out at all costs; to the detriment of many other things. :P
nopattern wrote:Of course Ableton has always provided very academic and generalized information in their manuals and the result is years of continuing myths and opinions about the software which have nothing to do with the real issues and the factual realities of why programs DO sound different. Of course 60% of their market are teenagers who just want to DJ with it so it doesnt really matter. However im just sick of people getting flamed for honestly HEARING audible differences in the programs only to get bashed on the forums with unrelated information like null tests by computer geeks who dont know shit about digital audio.
:lol:
I came for the :lol:
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Tone Deft
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:03 am

ninox_rufa wrote:I fail to see how you design a DAW and do the thousands of hours of planning and coding required for delay compensation and somehow overlook the fact that clock synced plugins will be out of time. A bug is something that is introduced unwillingly during coding. This is not what has happened here.
like I wrote a few hours ago... I wrote a software feature (funny enough, an audio delay buffer) that I thought I had tested, I asked someone else to test, we missed it, the QC group missed it and finally a customer found it 7 months after we shipped product. it was a big oversight. this gives me empathy, I have first hand experience with this. have you ever been involved in software development?
Fx23 didn't mention conspiracy.... It was simply a design decision by Ableton.
1. the act of conspiring.
2. an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.
3. a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose: He joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government.
4. Law . an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act.
5. any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.


I take that as a conspiracy. conspiring to put out the bare minimum half assed feature set and call it done.
I'm sure Ableton are quiet capable of telling me otherwise if they wish to.
LOL!!

at this point we're not going anywhere with this. you want to say they're bad at DAW design, I say they just fucked up. they did a lot of that in Live 8, it's consistent with the rest of the data.
In my life
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At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
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Tone Deft
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:31 am

^nice post.


and mad mofo-ing props to ninox_rufa for finding this and Khazul and others for analyzing what's going on.

I have a lot of respect for what's going down in this thread and I don't want to derail it with banter. it's not a bad thing to hold the Abes' feet to the fire.

best thread to kick Live's tires in quite a while. 8)

/respect.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

ninox_rufa
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by ninox_rufa » Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:49 am

scutheotaku wrote:whatever (these word games on what it is are kind of silly), so there's not much else any of us can do. If it really does effect your (by "your" and "you" I don't mean Tone Deft, I mean the OP and "supporters") music, then I'd suggest using another DAW until this is fixed in Live (if it ever is). If you'd like a recommendation for free DAWs that are good, I'd be happy to oblige
They're not games. Words are very important. There is a big difference between a mistake and a decision. I can't believe I have to explain this to you.
Do you think I haven't considered this? Surely I don't have to explain the consequences of time spent developing workflow in another DAW? Which would especially be a waste if six months from now Ableton finish fixing the problem and Live becomes usable.

Tone Deft wrote:I take that as a conspiracy. conspiring to put out the bare minimum features and call it done.
Seriously. Look at the rest of the definition. The word is overblown. It's full of bias. You know as well as I do that it's often used ad hominem to discredit the point someone is trying to make. I think it's a word best avoided.

Tone Deft wrote:I wrote a software feature (funny enough, an audio delay buffer) that I thought I had tested, I asked someone else to test, we missed it, the QC group missed it and finally a customer found it 7 months after we shipped product. it was a big oversight.
This is a little different to a team working on a project for 10 years though.
Tone Deft wrote:have you ever been involved in software development?
No. But it doesn't take much intelligence to understand the process and how mistakes can be missed. I have considered it.

Tone Deft wrote:you want to say they're bad at DAW design
Actually, no I didn't. If I wanted to say that I would have. I say they made a conscious design decision. I've already stated how superior Live is to Logic in many ways. They're fantastic at DAW design.
Tone Deft wrote: LOL!! at this point we're not going anywhere with this.
Yep I don't know if we are getting anywhere per se. I think I'm close to getting where I wanted to go. I got the problem out in the open. It's up to Ableton to respond. I'm not counting on it. I just don't think there's anything you can explain about software development that will help me understand where Ableton is at with this.
Tone Deft wrote:and mad mofo-ing props to ninox_rufa for finding this and Khazul and others for analyzing what's going on.
Thanks. I just wish Ableton would shed some light on the situation so I can make an informed decision. If they have no plans to fix it or it's gonna take 12+ months I'll accept the losses and move to Logic. Just need to know.
In the end it doesn't really matter if was a decision or a mistake. I just wish they'd let me know where they stand.
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kb420
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by kb420 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:40 am

Has anyone submitted a bug report?
H20nly wrote:fuck Bitwig.

ninox_rufa
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by ninox_rufa » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:51 am

kb420 wrote: Has anyone submitted a bug report?
Not sure if you're joking or not but I mentioned in my first post that I reported it 13 months ago and they confirmed it.
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kb420
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by kb420 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:04 am

I wasn't joking. I guess if they haven't done anything about it in 13 months, with all of the other bug fixes that they have completed, there isn't much chance that they will ever address the problem.
H20nly wrote:fuck Bitwig.

peoples10
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by peoples10 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:11 am

:oops: ok so what do we do to compensate the problem?
Rougth and dirty method or do i go and get diffrent daw.

ninox_rufa
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by ninox_rufa » Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:45 am

There is NO solution. Because of the nature of the problem there is nothing you can do.
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arafel
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by arafel » Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:01 am

IMHO
If you find this a problem:

Solution A: Turn off Delay Compensation.
Options > Delay Compensation (just uncheck it).
Then manually adjust tracks with Track Delay until they tighten up.
Done.

Solution B: Alter plugins (reorder, use lower latency plugs, use sends instead, etc, etc) to bypass the problem where it exists or makes an audible difference.
Eg - if your swirly LFO modulated and crazy automated pad sounds awesome... then it is awesome. No worries if it is out of sync by xxx ms. Print it and make some more noize.
Remember if it sounds good it is good.
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Der_Makrophag
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by Der_Makrophag » Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:57 am

I did not read all of your posts, but in the ones I read, I did not find something about this. Sorry if this is stupid, it just came to my mind:

Did you ensure during phase testing, that there are no "analog" filters in the pathways of the plugins? As they also will alter phase not in general but proportional to the frequency, thus preventing phase cancellation, but not introducing the same amount of overall delay?
My English is not perfect, I know... Sorry about that.

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fx23
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Re: Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL

Post by fx23 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:05 am

http://rapidshare.com/files/443477011/P ... roject.rar

the test was done with linear phaze eq, so so affecting phases in any way, plus no eq plots where engaged, and
even if the vst is bypassed you can clearly hear the out of, sync.

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