Latency in Return Tracks

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
3dot...
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Re: Latency in Return Tracks

Post by 3dot... » Tue May 07, 2013 2:34 am

chaosmoon wrote: Put an "External Audio Instrument" on a Return track.
Create an Audio Track (for recording the FX signal) set Monitor to "IN" with "Audio from" the Return track, Post FX
Disable sends on recording Audio Track.
this is pointless... kindof beats the concept of ext.fx
in this scenario ...why not just route the output of the return? if you're going to monitor it from another track...

the whole idea of 'external audio fx' is to route and receive on the same track with compensated delay..
besides.. if you record with monitor set to 'in'..
latency compensation isn't even active...(needs to be 'off')
and in this case you need to make sure that the ALL sends are disabled on that track as well..

and to the OP..
why are you feeding everything to Ext.1/2 and not via master bus->Ext.1/2 ?
any specific reason ?
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chaosmoon
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Re: Latency in Return Tracks

Post by chaosmoon » Tue May 07, 2013 9:32 am

it doesn't beat the concept at all. At some point i might want to print the effect and still be able vary the amount of wet mix. There are many possible reasons for this, i'll leave it to you to think of a few.

I am routing the output of the return, after the external instrument..so i can record it.

Are you sure latency comp doesnt work with monitoring on? Disabling the sends as per Nico's advice sure does something..I tested this last night with a loopback out/in of my interface and am pretty sure the beer and rum wasn't clouding my judgement so much as to not notice the difference at 1024 buffer.
iMac13,2 10.8.3 and MBP9,1 10.7.5 Live 9.0.2, M4L

3dot...
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Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:10 pm

Re: Latency in Return Tracks

Post by 3dot... » Tue May 07, 2013 12:38 pm

chaosmoon wrote:
I am routing the output of the return, after the external instrument..so i can record it.

.
yeah sure...but why do you need an Ext.Fx device for that?
you can just route the output of the return track to the Ext.out...

and yes.. I'm sure about the monitoring state.
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chaosmoon
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Re: Latency in Return Tracks

Post by chaosmoon » Tue May 07, 2013 11:48 pm

i just retested and my method works. Using an external audio effect and routing to an audio track post fx works without latency.

sending the return directly to an output and bringing it back in on an audio track wont work even with sends disabled.

i double checked by adjusting the pre-amp input on the signal coming back into Live.

could you confirm this 3dot?
iMac13,2 10.8.3 and MBP9,1 10.7.5 Live 9.0.2, M4L

chaosmoon
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Re: Latency in Return Tracks

Post by chaosmoon » Sat May 11, 2013 9:58 am

I'd really appreciate it if someone could confirm this.
iMac13,2 10.8.3 and MBP9,1 10.7.5 Live 9.0.2, M4L

3dot...
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Re: Latency in Return Tracks

Post by 3dot... » Sat May 11, 2013 10:55 am

what do you mean you checked using the pre-amp? I don't get it
you can double check doing a phase test
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chaosmoon
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Re: Latency in Return Tracks

Post by chaosmoon » Sat May 11, 2013 11:00 am

i checked to make sure i was listening to a physical input and didn't mess up my routing. It was close enough to doubt.
iMac13,2 10.8.3 and MBP9,1 10.7.5 Live 9.0.2, M4L

3dot...
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Re: Latency in Return Tracks

Post by 3dot... » Sat May 11, 2013 11:37 am

do this:
make a set with 2 audio tracks and 1 return
configure your setup so that:
- the 1st track is sending it's signal to the master + send
- the 2nd track is receiving from Ext. input of your outboard fx and outputs to master
- the return should be set up like you said...
- make your outboard FX DRY (no fx)
- put an audio clip on the 1st track and play (preferably a rhythmic sound)
- record to the 2nd track (feeding from your return loopback).

is the 1st (playback) track in sync with the 2nd recorded track?

line up the 2 clips in arrangement (original playing clip / recorded loopback clip)and zoom in to see if transients are lined up correctly

if so (which 99% it won't).. create another send.. and another audio input
a track and test again with the 2nd send...etc.
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chaosmoon
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Re: Latency in Return Tracks

Post by chaosmoon » Sat May 11, 2013 11:53 am

How about you do it? As an expert on latency you should be able to debunk my findings in minutes.
iMac13,2 10.8.3 and MBP9,1 10.7.5 Live 9.0.2, M4L

3dot...
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Re: Latency in Return Tracks

Post by 3dot... » Sat May 11, 2013 12:02 pm

wouldn't that be nice...
I've done this test many times... (and have better things to do right now than debunk you)
you can take it.. or leave it.. or try testing it..

people here are giving you good advice based on personal experience and knowledge
about how Live performs... and how to avoid timing problems..
all these of course can be corrected if you're recording the audio..but it's a pain
that said..if you don't hear it ..
you can carry on.. it doesn't matter really does it
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chaosmoon
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Re: Latency in Return Tracks

Post by chaosmoon » Sat May 11, 2013 12:12 pm

Actually i will test it, for the 3rd time. Because i'm concerned your stubborn stance is possibly going to get in the way of other people who might end up here.
iMac13,2 10.8.3 and MBP9,1 10.7.5 Live 9.0.2, M4L

3dot...
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Re: Latency in Return Tracks

Post by 3dot... » Sat May 11, 2013 12:20 pm

cool.. let us know what you come up with.. (screenshots and audio examples are welcome)

edit : oh... and remember to turn Warping OFF on all audio clips
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chaosmoon
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Re: Latency in Return Tracks

Post by chaosmoon » Fri May 17, 2013 8:26 pm

Here's my setup in Live:

"click" Audio track outputs to "Master" and "send A"
"A EXT FX" (Send A) output is set to (disabled) "Sends Only". It contains an "External Audio Effect" with "Audio To" and "Audio From" both set to 4.
"FX REC" outputs to "Master" and is set to "Monitor IN" from "A-EXT FX", "Post Mixer". FOR THIS TO WORK "Send A" MUST BE DISABLED.

The 2nd image is the DSP mixer for my ULN8 interface. It's routing output 4 (DAW 4) from Live to its analog out 4. Analog input 4 is routing back into Live's input 4 (FW 04).

The 3rd image is the a patchbay with the interface "output 4" patched back into "input 4"

Here are the recorded files:

"FX REC" send disabled (24bit .aif, 2MB)
"FX REC" send enabled (24bit .aif, 2MB)



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iMac13,2 10.8.3 and MBP9,1 10.7.5 Live 9.0.2, M4L

chaosmoon
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Re: Latency in Return Tracks

Post by chaosmoon » Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:15 pm

Shall we conclude that this works then?
iMac13,2 10.8.3 and MBP9,1 10.7.5 Live 9.0.2, M4L

sebprovision
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Re: Latency in Return Tracks

Post by sebprovision » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:34 am

Khazul wrote:Do you have a return track routed to something other than the master?

If so - disable the corresponding send on the track its routed to.
Oh my god!... Thank you!

EDIT* Been fucking with the track delay* since forever and just got fed up with it now and found this answer... Life saver.

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