** How many people actually MIX songs in Ableton ? **

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
fisto
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Re: ** How many people actually MIX songs in Ableton ? **

Post by fisto » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:21 pm

haha,
jaust one more: with tool i meant: a tool for sounddesign, a tool for writing tunes, a tool for performing :-)

Have some of you guys checked out reaper already? I've been mixing in reaper for over a year now and as I've looked deeper into it I think I'm gonna start also writing in it besides Live.

The two complement each other very well especially with ReaRoute.
If Live only had a propper midisync, the world would be veeeeeeery bright :o

The Leveller
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Re: ** How many people actually MIX songs in Ableton ? **

Post by The Leveller » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:14 pm

I hear so many good things about it, but like I said I get an instant screeching and crash, probably relating to a specific plug in...but with the screeching nastiness going on I can't even find out which one before I say eff it and uninstall.

I previously used mixbus and am now fiddling with Studio One, both of which I like but it's the whole faff of getting your stemmage into them and then mixing by which time I can just use Live and because I've used Live for so long it's an enjoyable and easy experience with the results I like to hear.

Since I don't buy into the 'live's audio engine is inferior' argument and I'm more than a little lazy, an all-in-one solution to recording, producing and mixing is fine with me, even though there may be shortcomings that other daws deal with better.

I really think it's just down to what you like to use as an individual. The results are down to the skills of the operator.

Khazul
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Re: ** How many people actually MIX songs in Ableton ? **

Post by Khazul » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:15 pm

The Leveller wrote:Since I don't buy into the 'live's audio engine is inferior' argument ...
This depends upon what you conside the audio engine. An average user consider anything that in anyway impacts audio playback and rendering (including wap, automation, clocks etc) - from that point of viw - it is inferior and objectively probably so beyond any doubt.

OTOH, if you are only considering the basic audio path processing without any consideration to how plugins are controlled and how plugins might impact the audio and also exclude consideration of in-the-box plugins (ie default state of a new set with unwarped, unlooped and at project sample rate audio clips) and exclude sample rate conversion then its fine - it appears to do mathematically correct floating point summing and panning - but lets face it - thats *all* it has to do. I would ever say I see nothing wrong with its export dithering either.

I think the problems people experience lie once you venture past this perfect pristince state. Some of them I have to say are logically bullshit and lie within the realm of placebo and faith etc, but I also have to say that over the years there have been a number of occasionaly that have made me question lives audio quality after discounting all logic explanations except for these:

1. Some DAWs *could* do oversampling (x2 or x4) in their native audio path resulting in a higher apparent sample rate through plugins (I am not talking about internal oversampling in native EQs etc). However I know of no DAW that actually does this, so I guess discount it.

2. Lives default bit depth coversion from internal processing to 24/16 bit audio hardware may be flawed in some wierd way, particularly at sample rates where the ninquist frenquency is close to audio range - ie 44.1k, and to a lesser extent 48k causing reflected overtones back down into the audio range - increasing apparent harshness/graininess of sound, potentially reducing clarity etc. I cant think that Live can exist for so long and something like this to still be the case also given that ableton have apparently does quite a bit of internal research and answering of such claims.

3. Lack of clock latency compensation. Yes sure - we know all the obvious impacts upon LFOs and other blatently obvious time syncronised processing thanks to recent threads and testing folks have done. But what about the non-obvious? What about the potential impact upon any plugin that relies upon a perfectly compensated VST time (AU equivalent) structure to do its historical processing correctly?

I dont know these answers, but I cant discount these possibly more subtle effects either.

I think we have the be a litttle more open minded about the possibility of a ghost in the machine somewhere and not allways be so quick to dismiss these claims. I have had several times when i have thought a mix sounded better in something else (including time when I didnt know that the person iwas workign with at the time had recreated the mix in something else), but Ive put it down to not quite standing in the same place, someone else not standing in the same place (and so impacting audio wave refraction, so in turn impacting perceived phasing and perceived frequence balance due to cancellattion and re-enforcement etc). However after recent threads and doing some fo the testing myself and tthinking through some things from the pespective of a develpoer who understand audio processing and the VST SDK at least - there are now alot more things to question and alot more unknowns that cant yet be dismissed.

Maybe something to poke around with next week when I get released from corporate slavery and get to enjoy a month or more as a jobless music bum :)
Last edited by Khazul on Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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fisto
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Re: ** How many people actually MIX songs in Ableton ? **

Post by fisto » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:38 pm

nice explanation khazul.
I recently read in the reaper forum that when you export a project in let's say 192khz, and then downsample it to 44.1khz again, the sound is perceivebly clearer as Reaper resamples all plugins and audio paths in the process when rendering.
I did not try it by now as the project I'm currently on is not finished yet but soon, and I'm realy curious about the result. I will compare it to the normal 44.1 render and see what it brings.

But it's surely an interesting point to investigate.

dbfs
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Re: ** How many people actually MIX songs in Ableton ? **

Post by dbfs » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:17 am

Khazul - You sure do like to hear yourself talk, don't you? Gigantic walls of text and hot air... How can one have any time for real serious audio work, when they have practically wrote a short novel in one thread alone? The answer is... You don't - The math doesn't work out, unless your a tweaker. Which might actually be the case. :!:

Gramps gave me a great piece of advice one day "You gotta watch out for those talkers, they talk so much they start believing their own bullshit." - It has served me well in my years. It's all smoke and mirrors to feed your insecurities...


Anywho, carry on with "pro bedroom mixing" discussions. It's quite amusing.

Rationalizer
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Re: ** How many people actually MIX songs in Ableton ? **

Post by Rationalizer » Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:18 am

dbfs wrote:Khazul - You sure do like to hear yourself talk, don't you? Gigantic walls of text and hot air... How can one have any time for real serious audio work, when they have practically wrote a short novel in one thread alone? The answer is... You don't - The math doesn't work out, unless your a tweaker. Which might actually be the case. :!:

Gramps gave me a great piece of advice one day "You gotta watch out for those talkers, they talk so much they start believing their own bullshit." - It has served me well in my years. It's all smoke and mirrors to feed your insecurities...


Anywho, carry on with "pro bedroom mixing" discussions. It's quite amusing.
...and what was the point in your post? Something to do with the thread, eh? IMO Khazul has contributed a lot to this thread and I'm glad he found the time to do it.
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Gibbojim
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Re: ** How many people actually MIX songs in Ableton ? **

Post by Gibbojim » Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:47 am

I have managed to Mix many times in Live, No problems its fine.

Khazul
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Re: ** How many people actually MIX songs in Ableton ? **

Post by Khazul » Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:57 am

dbfs wrote:Khazul - You sure do like to hear yourself talk, don't you? Gigantic walls of text and hot air... How can one have any time for real serious audio work, when they have practically wrote a short novel in one thread alone? The answer is... You don't - The math doesn't work out, unless your a tweaker. Which might actually be the case. :!:

Gramps gave me a great piece of advice one day "You gotta watch out for those talkers, they talk so much they start believing their own bullshit." - It has served me well in my years. It's all smoke and mirrors to feed your insecurities...

Anywho, carry on with "pro bedroom mixing" discussions. It's quite amusing.
hmmm - still the old mdb but what? still pissed at being deactivated (banned?) by dom for whatever reason it was? :)

And yes - your right - Im not doing much music creation wise at the moment - head just isnt in the right place and I have alot of time on my hands down to just quitting a decent IT day job in some huge software corp Ive had for 15 years with no plans - scary and also very very liberating :)
Nothing to see here - move along!

The Leveller
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Re: ** How many people actually MIX songs in Ableton ? **

Post by The Leveller » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:23 pm

Interesting points Khazul, things I had not considered at all and will now ponder.

But, in the final analysis I always trust my ears and the feedback of others on the mix and I'm just not sure about the actual objective quality of a final Live stereo audio file being markedly, or indeed noticeably, different to any other DAW.

But that maybe just me, although I do recall seeing null tests between Live and other DAW mixes with proof that they cancel perfectly meaning there cannot be any difference.

You're going to ask me for links now and I don't have them, but I am sure I recall seeing that some years ago. I suppose anyone could do the test though...if they had some time off work coming up, for example. :wink:

*jealous of time off work for music mode off*

Khazul
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Re: ** How many people actually MIX songs in Ableton ? **

Post by Khazul » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:37 pm

The Leveller wrote:Interesting points Khazul, things I had not considered at all and will now ponder.

But, in the final analysis I always trust my ears and the feedback of others on the mix and I'm just not sure about the actual objective quality of a final Live stereo audio file being markedly, or indeed noticeably, different to any other DAW.

But that maybe just me, although I do recall seeing null tests between Live and other DAW mixes with proof that they cancel perfectly meaning there cannot be any difference.
Unless there is something specific that has bothered you - I wouldnt waste time on it :)

For me - I just want to avoid wild goose chases because I have a month or so of I fairly intense album mixing coming up, so using some dead time to doing a load of testing and experimentation to really put any concerns over quirks etc to bed (as either ingnorable, or known issues, things to avoid etc) before they end up causing distractions etc and to work out what were actually going to use for the job - know your tools ec :)
Nothing to see here - move along!

mrdelurk
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Re: ** How many people actually MIX songs in Ableton ? **

Post by mrdelurk » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:35 pm

Some people complained that Ableton lacks a dedicated mixer page. I'm not sure if I'd consider that a minus. I exactly came to Live from Logic Pro because I did not want to deal anymore with one screen for tracking, another for mixing, a third for routing (that horrendous "Environment") and all the rest... I like Live's user interface much better, it actually feels like a musical instrument. Just my 2 cents.

quandry
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Re: ** How many people actually MIX songs in Ableton ? **

Post by quandry » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:07 am

haven't read this whole post, not trying to incite any arguments, or get into audio engine discussions, only actual features. A few questions:

Is the OP's statement regarding a 4 GB RAM limit on Ableton Live for reals?
(Curious to know if my 10 GB RAM on a Windows 7 64-bit machine is being used--it seems like when I load up tons of Kontakt instruments with many GB's of samples that either Kontakt and/or Live are using almost 8 GB or RAM, from what task manager tells me)


Can someone(s) please list actual features (no audio engine discussion please) that make you prefer mixing in Reaper/Logic etc. over Ableton?
(Is it some sort of group track/comp track stuff like I've seen from Logic, is it simply key-commands and work-flow stuff (pls be specific), is it routing-related features? Just curious to know if I'm missing something completely, or if there are perhaps "work-arounds" in Ableton that can ultimately accomplish the same task?)

thanks!
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3phase
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Re: ** How many people actually MIX songs in Ableton ? **

Post by 3phase » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:45 pm

Khazul wrote:
The Leveller wrote:Since I don't buy into the 'live's audio engine is inferior' argument ...
This depends upon what you conside the audio engine. An average user consider anything that in anyway impacts audio playback and rendering (including wap, automation, clocks etc) - from that point of viw - it is inferior and objectively probably so beyond any doubt.

OTOH, if you are only considering the basic audio path processing without any consideration to how plugins are controlled ..........

hi guys.. you are allready in the ableton propaganda trap when you even seperate the so called "audio engine" from the total performance..

That was a trick ableton officials have choosen a few years ago to hide theire audio problems without resorting to plain lieing..

So they just reduced the defenition of the term "audio engine" to the plain mechanism of 32 bit floating point math inside the processor..and claimed that theire 32 bit floating point math is exactly the same as in any other daw..

what of cause is true..

but that is true for any spreadsheet calculation aswell and you never would say that microsoft excel has the same audio performance than logic..

But..thats what ableton actually did back than. And while the pro audio world laughed the fan boys felt secured.

But of cause.. the audio engine of a daw is that what the daw developers design with theese floating point math.. how the audio data is handled..mixed..truncated or not..dithred or not..latency compensated..aso..

So my advice.. avoid live for mixing when you can.. your audio will benefit from that..
And dont argue about it..
just try it

and..

never trust ableton statements.
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

3phase
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Re: ** How many people actually MIX songs in Ableton ? **

Post by 3phase » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:09 pm

quandry wrote: Can someone(s) please list actual features (no audio engine discussion please) that make you prefer mixing in Reaper/Logic etc. over Ableton?
(Is it some sort of group track/comp track stuff like I've seen from Logic, is it simply key-commands and work-flow stuff (pls be specific), is it routing-related features? Just curious to know if I'm missing something completely, or if there are perhaps "work-arounds" in Ableton that can ultimately accomplish the same task?)

thanks!
omf file export import..
what enables you to mix in big studios what is the ultimate way to a better sound quality..at least when you know that studio and theire monitoring...

than real mixing atomation with trim..

lot more of plug ins can be run..

surround support when you need that..

better arrange options to do final detail work.. or gaining better overview by hiding unused tracks or having grouptracks you can name and colour code

and of cause a better audio quality in the mix.. :-)

what applies especially when you work with premixed acoustical stems..there the ableton sound does more harm than on single tracks..

so mixing techno tracks with single plug in sound sources can well be done in live without even getting that there might be something missing...
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

silveriofunk
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Re: ** How many people actually MIX songs in Ableton ? **

Post by silveriofunk » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:43 pm

i use live for everything, i'm used to it now and i don't mind it's limitations (like the mixer on the arrangement view) you just get used to them......... however i think i might give reaper a try since i've had it for like a month or two just to see if it makes my work flow better since i never seem to stop fiddling with the material and just to focus on the mixing.

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