New Campaign - Please Change Ableton Groove!

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Fantismo
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New Campaign - Please Change Ableton Groove!

Post by Fantismo » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:14 am

I loved these ease of use of the old groove control on ableton.. the new one is so clumsy.. if we must have the new groove - can't we at least have the option to have the old control as well? Subtle swing is now available on a lot of plugins... it's crazy to not have a simple global groove control on the control bar at the top?

Please +1 this if you agree

If ableton dont change this for version nine ill be amazed.. there are a few simple things ableton does badly.. and this is one of them.. automation curves anyone? Grouping groups? Bounce in place?

(been with ableton since version 4 and a loyal follower!)

seattletruth
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Re: New Campaign - Please Change Ableton Groove!

Post by seattletruth » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:23 am

Fantismo wrote:I loved these ease of use of the old groove control on ableton.. the new one is so clumsy.. if we must have the new groove - can't we at least have the option to have the old control as well? Subtle swing is now available on a lot of plugins... it's crazy to not have a simple global groove control on the control bar at the top?

Please +1 this if you agree

If ableton dont change this for version nine ill be amazed.. there are a few simple things ableton does badly.. and this is one of them.. automation curves anyone? Grouping groups? Bounce in place?

(been with ableton since version 4 and a loyal follower!)
YES! YES! YES! (that's what she said).

+Pi

Seriously though. Why cant it have a swing percentage like everything else?

And why can't we have curves for the automation? And grouping groups would be nice too!

3phase
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Re: New Campaign - Please Change Ableton Groove!

Post by 3phase » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:36 am

+1

the reason they hide it in the groovepool is quite obvious.. when you use different grooves changing the global amount leads to unpredictable behaviour..so its a parameter that is not ment to be changed anymore..

but..you need to change it to test a new groove..but while changing it..you change the whole timing of the song.. so you need to commit all other applied grooves before beeing able to test a new one..
that this is a flawed mode of operation that leads to trouble is quite obvious.
Especially because of the groovepool bug its often not possible to reverse a once commited groove.

Of cause when people just use one groove template all over the place they still can assign a controler to achive the old behaviour..
thats the thinking behind the change.. but..

thats again ableton style to add new functions the quick way, by trying to keep the control and parameter or user settings count as little as possible.. ..wrong politics when theese new functionality kills stage functionalitys users are allready used too, and therefore adding new workflows for the price of abandon old ones..
Thats no real progress or expanding, especially because this happens all in the direction away from a stage tool towards a half featured daw.. what is crippling the program somehow..a 2steps forward one step backward politics that is applied continously since so many years that this has to be seen as ableton style. so your effort with the campaign wont see fruits..

again..the whole section would need a major rewrite to ensure perfect function in booth scenarios, stage and studio..and again the argument that there is no time for that will prohibit that for years.or allways..as usual..
The old thing with..
when you dont do it wright from the start ..it wont be wright forever..

In ideal they just would have added the new functionality on top or additional to the old one.. so there are the ableton internal swing presets with their global performance control, graphical indicated by a bold font in the clip´s groove selector, on top of the list and allways there.
And the song related groovepool presets with individual amount setting just added to that permanent performance grooves.. And the pool prestes get an offset delay parameter of cause..and this pool presets would do a real quantize to the defined positions..not endless shifting like now.

and an option to transform a self designed groove from the pool into a permanent performance preset that is accesible via global swing.. and callable from all timing related plugs of cause.. like the apregiator

everything else i see as a compromize


the problem is that the good old performance swing was abused to squash in a groove desigener functionality as we know it from the oldest daws´ like studio vision for example.. so a real quantize preset creation using the performance groove mechanism. compromizing booth functionalitys this way.. to achive what?
i guess it was just to do it more quickly..

so another old engineering wisdom applies here..

saving money on the wrong spot is rising the costs in the end.
Last edited by 3phase on Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:14 am, edited 4 times in total.
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buzby
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Re: New Campaign - Please Change Ableton Groove!

Post by buzby » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:53 am

+ 1 .. bring back global groove
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3phase
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Re: New Campaign - Please Change Ableton Groove!

Post by 3phase » Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:03 am

and one more.. to ableton

by safing development time by abandon old functionalitys you force the user to rewrite his sets and learn new moves..

so safing your development time is stealing the users time..but multiplied by the thousends.. so its not really economical anyway when you look at it globaly.

Of cause a software company reserves the right to remove functionalitys..but when was the performance swing added.. in L6? or allready in L5?

so you left us 2-3 years with a new toy.. a good drummachine fuctionality that is very usefull on stage ..
to remove it again.?

is that really fair ? or was that really necessary? and..is the reason for the many bugs maybe in your try to dont rewrite sections but add new functionality with minimal effort? Was the endresult of L8 an economical win?
Defently not an immage win. What is an economical loss in the long run.

Even when its hard and annoying work to redo things allready done.
The new groovepool is quite a good example of what went wrong with the development of Live 8..and fixing that would be a very visible sign for a change to the positive. just like better sync options of cause ;-)
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Hoffoman
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Re: New Campaign - Please Change Ableton Groove!

Post by Hoffoman » Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:28 am

-1. I much prefer the new groove functionality

cids
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Re: New Campaign - Please Change Ableton Groove!

Post by cids » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:16 pm

-1

The new groove (although not perfect...) is much better and much more usuable than the old limited groove settings!
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3phase
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Re: New Campaign - Please Change Ableton Groove!

Post by 3phase » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:31 pm

?? he - smarties..this thread dont aks for removing the new groove pool..it just asks for bringing the stage functionality of the old version back.

in the most minimal version thats just to have the global swing amount window next to the tempos dsplay again..what is so much better now with hiding that in the groovepool?
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cids
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Re: New Campaign - Please Change Ableton Groove!

Post by cids » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:35 pm

@3phase --> because the old functionality sucked big time and I never used it... ;-) but if someone really needs it, I have no problem in getting it back...
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Piplodocus
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Re: New Campaign - Please Change Ableton Groove!

Post by Piplodocus » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:55 pm

I thought the whole point was you can just put the regular swing groove with the timing at 100% in the groove pool, then use the master global grove % (at the top of the groove window) like the old one?!?!

I never liked the old groove that much, so was pleased with the new one. Unfortunately all my tunes which might want a groove seem to have odd grooves in funny time sigs that there doesn't appear to be a good default for! It's still a LOT more useful than it used to be though.

Fantismo
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Re: New Campaign - Please Change Ableton Groove!

Post by Fantismo » Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:02 pm

anyone from ableton able to comment if you'll change the groove function?

necho
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Re: New Campaign - Please Change Ableton Groove!

Post by necho » Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:13 pm

I think we can safely assume that hell will freeze over before Ableton devs even consider doing this.

I personally wouldn't get my hopes up.

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Angstrom
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Re: New Campaign - Please Change Ableton Groove!

Post by Angstrom » Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:25 pm

Piplodocus wrote: I never liked the old groove that much, so was pleased with the new one. Unfortunately all my tunes which might want a groove seem to have odd grooves in funny time sigs that there doesn't appear to be a good default for! It's still a LOT more useful than it used to be though.
My grooves are usually a bit unusual too, but it's easy to make your own groove preset to make your freaky groove tighter. I create a composite midi pattern, usually by getting the drum pattern and flattening it all down to one note. That usually gives me a few bars of grooving 16ths, if there are any missing I can usually guestimate them in. Then I drag that midi clip to the groove pool.
Now by applying THAT groove to all of my various clips in the song my own groove stops sounding so drunken and becomes magically tighter. It's a wonderful thing

Still groovy, and individual, but tight.

3phase
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Re: New Campaign - Please Change Ableton Groove!

Post by 3phase » Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:40 pm

Angstrom wrote:
Piplodocus wrote: I never liked the old groove that much, so was pleased with the new one. Unfortunately all my tunes which might want a groove seem to have odd grooves in funny time sigs that there doesn't appear to be a good default for! It's still a LOT more useful than it used to be though.
My grooves are usually a bit unusual too, but it's easy to make your own groove preset to make your freaky groove tighter. I create a composite midi pattern, usually by getting the drum pattern and flattening it all down to one note. That usually gives me a few bars of grooving 16ths, if there are any missing I can usually guestimate them in. Then I drag that midi clip to the groove pool.
Now by applying THAT groove to all of my various clips in the song my own groove stops sounding so drunken and becomes magically tighter. It's a wonderful thing

Still groovy, and individual, but tight.

ever tried to apply the same groove twice? maybe after some edits on an allready comitted track? or do you never commit a groove?..

they should remove the comit functio.. what is it good for when you cant use it anyway ( taht was a joke..they should fix the bug of cause )
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Piplodocus
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Re: New Campaign - Please Change Ableton Groove!

Post by Piplodocus » Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:57 pm

3phase wrote: they should remove the comit functio.. what is it good for when you cant use it anyway ( taht was a joke..they should fix the bug of cause )
I've never used commit groove for applying the same groove multiple times. I use it once, just so the part shows what I'm really playing in case I need to do a later manual timing edit, or to compare my live recordings (bass/guitar/drums) to a straight quantised/programmed MIDI part that's then had groove added. So no, I like being able to commit it, else I couldn't see what I've done and if my programmed parts match my funky "live" playing!
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