Who thinks their music is original?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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Khazul
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Re: Who thinks their music is original?

Post by Khazul » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:04 am

I wierd thing I get as I cant see it myself when I listten to my own stuff is people who know my music can mostly recognise when something new they aint heard before is mine, or that I mixed it for someone else.

Odd thing - Im all over the place when it comes to production styles, genres etc, so I guess something of me must allways creep through, but I actually cant see it listening to my own stuff.

Or maybe its just that its so obviously shit :P
Nothing to see here - move along!

The Leveller
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Re: Who thinks their music is original?

Post by The Leveller » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:06 am

It's Reading, thats what it is. They can hear the Reading. :D

Angstrom
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Re: Who thinks their music is original?

Post by Angstrom » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:48 am

The Leveller wrote: Disagree on the 80s, the 80s revival has been going on every year since 1990 and frankly, it is as shit now as it was then, its just that the kids are so young now they forget how uncool the whole thing was.
But the 2011 version of 80's hair, as seen on the head of any random youth, is way better than any real 1980s popster hair . So there's your proof. The 80s are better this time round ;)

Grappadura
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Re: Who thinks their music is original?

Post by Grappadura » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:02 pm

theres no point to making "totally original music". if its never been heard, people won´t be able to relate to it = failure, at least from a commercial point of view.

"totally original music" is only possible if you disregard all conventions. but how can you do that without sounding a total mess?

the only thing you can reasonably do, is take the music that is "avantgarde" to you, use it as a starting point, and take it only one little step further. that way, people will still be able to relate to it. thats how music evolves, at least the music that prevails.

the thing is to expand the rules, not to break them.

The Leveller
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Re: Who thinks their music is original?

Post by The Leveller » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:11 pm

Interesting point. But it does presume that originality equals avant-garde. I'm not sure that is true, but I do take your point.

I suppose my original thoughts were along the lines of trying to understand the line between simply sounding like someone/thing that has already been done and listeners finding your music a unique listening experience.

Perhaps originality was the wrong word.

Maybe the question is, who has command of their art to the point of demonstrating an individual style.

I'm not really discussing commercial appeal, to me thats something completely separate.

Grappadura
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Re: Who thinks their music is original?

Post by Grappadura » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:28 pm

in order to have that command, I think you need some understanding of "how do I sound like artist x". I mean to be able to replicate the styles you hear and really know your gear.

Once you´re able to do that, you need to think real hard what you want to come up with. Think in less tecnical terms, think about the feel, and only after that think how you can achieve it.

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Re: Who thinks their music is original?

Post by Grappadura » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:28 pm

double

Forge.
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Re: Who thinks their music is original?

Post by Forge. » Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:14 pm

The Leveller wrote:Interesting point. But it does presume that originality equals avant-garde. I'm not sure that is true, but I do take your point.

I suppose my original thoughts were along the lines of trying to understand the line between simply sounding like someone/thing that has already been done and listeners finding your music a unique listening experience.

Perhaps originality was the wrong word.

Maybe the question is, who has command of their art to the point of demonstrating an individual style.

I'm not really discussing commercial appeal, to me thats something completely separate.
well you just won't find it because the whole thing is so subjective that no one will ever agree on what is 'original'. 3phase will never agree unless it is his own music, others will hear influences that maybe different people have never heard of, so there will always be a complete disagreement on what is original. It's completely down to your own personal tastes.

In any case, this is the kind of discussion I love, and whatever anyone's idea on originality, the fact that is getting discussed at all is good enough for me.

3phase
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Re: Who thinks their music is original?

Post by 3phase » Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:25 pm

its somehow fascinating how totaly unaware you guys are about music and it´s defently a waste of time when you discuss quality terms like originality..

a pretty childish approach to see originality in music just in unheard sequencing of notes, probably based on some kind of self protection and therfore claiming that there is no originality in music..

but of cause there are every day new musical compositions that are a total new little worlds in themself..and sometimes even a whole new universe..theese are the tracks that can create new genres... but of cause a track dont needs to create a new genre to be an original.. it just needs to be true.. and thats the point.. original in the sense of being an original... not in the sense of being absolutly unheard in any aspect... you can paint original pictures with just the same colours and even motivs as you use on disgusting and soulless naiv rubish, too ugly to talk about copy of a copy pictures.

When you know a style you usually get that a track is just pretending within the first 4 bars.. and at latest at the first break you know that you deal with a copy..or a copy of a copy..
music that is just pretending combines things that dont fit.. are out of proportion.. you get that someone is a faker or cheating and dont has an own idea behind..
Little mistakes...the lack of soul.. integrity.. honesty..and especially the lack of creativity.
Like in any art you need to be a specialist to easily seperate the faked pictures from the originals. Sometimes the fakers are even better equiped than the originals and present the fake pictures in more shiny colours and heavier bottom end.. but only amateur users get cheated by that...

sometimes the copys of a copy of a copy are so badly missunderstanding or performing a style that they get originals of theire own right again..

The so bad that its good allready again phenomen.. theese tracks are like quasimodo in music.. maybe not exactly a catalog beauty but certainly character..
Obviously that wont happen to guys from the " We know the rules, too cool to take a risk" department.
Theese are usually the most unoriginal of them all and try to compensate theire lack of creativity with voluntary style police work.

the associated products usually lack as much soul than as any copy.

See all the " well known dj/producer " clones on the market..

Actually the monkey see monkey do attitude in contemporary music kills the music biz more than anything else.

people dont even want to be original anymore..they just want to be cool without taking risks or efforts..

so best way is to just dress like the cool kids..get a certivikation, and than start discussions about originality :lol:
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The Leveller
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Re: Who thinks their music is original?

Post by The Leveller » Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:31 pm

Very good points 3-phase.

So, in a way only those that are truly part of their cultural link to a genre could create original music, because they know what it means at an emotional level rather than a technical level. Those that don't inevitably sound like clones, and bad clones at that, because they lack the insight into the culture that spawned the art in the first place.

Those that were originally involved and have professional expertise to match can post the fakers, the copiers.

I like that.

I'm not too keen on the personal insults though, not necessary in a sensible discussion, and since I am in my 40s I don't dress like a cool kid. But I don't think that should stop me starting a thread on what consitutes originality in music.

You had good points to make, stick to that.

Grappadura
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Re: Who thinks their music is original?

Post by Grappadura » Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:07 pm

I´d say there isnt a single genre that has evolved totally by itself, its always tied to what there was before it.

edit: ok maybe people like strawinky or the guy who created the zwölftonmusik completely broke the boundarys, but of course they themselves started out by learning what was there before them.

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Re: Who thinks their music is original?

Post by Forge. » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:39 am

3phase wrote:its somehow fascinating how totaly unaware you guys are about music and it´s defently a waste of time when you discuss quality terms like originality..


Still, you devoted 478 words to the waste of time?
3phase wrote: people dont even want to be original anymore..they just want to be cool without taking risks or efforts..

....so best way is to just dress like the cool kids..get a certivikation, and than start discussions about originality :lol:..
3phase, I think you are just fighting against getting older and it is making you bitter.

What you are describing is just what happens when the next generation is passed the torch... I don't think any of the older people who have been doing it a long time and are still successful fit your description, you are talking about the natural tendency for kids to imitate the people they admire and learn from them. Even the Beatles when they were kids went out of their way to be like their idols. They spent many years just doing covers of other people's rock and roll, dressing like the other cool kids of the time..... there is nothing wrong with this... maybe they will go on to be more original in time

I teach these "kids" who remind me of myself 15 years ago - just excited and full of ambition.... but when you get to a certain age you have to tone it down....

Like "The Leveller" said, you had some good points, but you always ruin it with arrogance and insults.

3phase
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Re: Who thinks their music is original?

Post by 3phase » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:29 am

abletontrainer.com wrote: 3phase, I think you are just fighting against getting older and it is making you bitter.

What you are describing is just what happens when the next generation is passed the torch... I don't think any of the older people who have been doing it a long time and are still successful fit your description, you are talking about the natural tendency for kids to imitate the people they admire and learn from them. Even the Beatles when they were kids went out of their way to be like their idols. They spent many years just doing covers of other people's rock and roll, dressing like the other cool kids of the time..... there is nothing wrong with this... maybe they will go on to be more original in time

I teach these "kids" who remind me of myself 15 years ago - just excited and full of ambition.... but when you get to a certain age you have to tone it down....

Like "The Leveller" said, you had some good points, but you always ruin it with arrogance and insults.

tsss.. i am only fighting against dumbots..and ableton trainers .. oh my :roll:
your statements here regarding original music clearly show that you dont have any clue ... even the beatles?
next generation passing the torch? what a bullshit..what next generation? with their brandnew own subcultures and styles?
outch
there wasnt any next generations.. they failed to do something own... at least sofar..and people like you are not helping to get the torch passed by declaring all music beeing a copy of somebody...
thats of cause untrue and just justifies your own limitations.

however..its clearly evident that some things have changed in this millenium and that people dont have much sense for originality anymore... a short term or a longterm trend?

defently a side fx of snake oil products like ableton live and the other magix music makers.

It became to easy to copy so nobody can seperate copys from originals anymore..even worse.. the originals tend to sound less perfect.. so the whole process of boosting fake art pushes the real one to the side and prevents the kids from getting torch ideas.. copying the safe grounds seems to be more rewarding and when punk wouldnt have been allready invented it would be just about time now.

In earlier times people knew when they were just coverbands..now they pay for the illusion to be a producer or musican.. just guitar hero dont hides that its just a computer game.. funny enough ..the only one that needs real skills..


In the end this is the revenge of the establishment for rock´n´roll...and there is a lot they have to revenge for...they wont stop since we are greatfull to be allowed to listen to wagner again... As relief from all the faked rubbish
8)
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Forge.
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Re: Who thinks their music is original?

Post by Forge. » Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:04 am

3phase wrote:....
tsss.. i am only fighting against dumbots..and ableton trainers .......
defently a side fx of snake oil products like ableton live and the other magix music makers.
...
oh well, you carry on with your arrogance and insults all you like.... it's getting pretty tedious and I don't know why I bothered to argue with you really.... you talk about Ableton Live being snake oil and I only wonder why you are here on their forum?

all the time you are putting into your long insulting posts you could be putting into your music.....

There are plenty of other people your age who had their "hits" back in the day who are STILL making hits and I doubt they are making the same kind of bitter posts that you are on internet forums.... and I doubt they are worrying too much about all this shit you waste your time with

live and let live...

The Leveller
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Re: Who thinks their music is original?

Post by The Leveller » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:53 am

The thign is 3-phase, that not all Ableton users try to make dance music. I don't.

I think alot of your comments are directed at that industry, but that is a little unfair since, even in your day techno evolved from House and House from Disco....unless you were making your music back in the 70s, you yourself simply copied what had gone before to some degree. That's ALTrainer's point.

Originality is impossible, uniqueness isn't.

Of course on the whole I agree that the whole industry is based on farming the dreams of the wannabe, there are other threads about that. But in amongst all that, there will be musicians making unique music at a good quality level even using Ableton Live. The choice of tools is an individual one regardless of whether or not you personally find it an acceptable tool.

Or perhaps you are suggesting there is no unique music at all being made anymore?

Wagner has his place too, but he was hardly original...

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