Everyone else is 64 bit

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
studiologic
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by studiologic » Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 am

Tone Deft wrote:
studiologic wrote:without a 64 bit upgrade/update... ableton will be kissing there east/west, kontakt, omnisphere, trillian or any large sample library user GOOD-BYE...

try loading a bass patch from trillian, piano from east/west, strings from east/west, horns/woodwinds from kontakt powered libraries, synth from omnisphere, etc...

if you look at fl studio 10... their first new feature in the advertisement is that 64 bit bridge... in the demo video... they used Kontakt to show that feature...

64 bit is now...
because nobody currently uses east/west, kontakt, omnisphere, trillian or any large sample libraries with the current versions of Live.

people act like they can't make music on a computer without the latest evolution in software. we've been doing it for decades.

relax, everything will be fine.

funny!!! i try too!!!

Tone Deft
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:54 am

:lol:

WE WANT MOAR!!!!!!

the 21st century is a fun time to be around for all the new toys. serious Dick Tracy stuff is going down.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

studiologic
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by studiologic » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:02 am

Tone Deft wrote::lol:

WE WANT MOAR!!!!!!

the 21st century is a fun time to be around for all the new toys. serious Dick Tracy stuff is going down.
not about wanting MOAR!!!

just want to utilitize the stuff, including computer, that i own... yes, ableton works great on my p4 3.4 P4 machine with sampletank... but i would prefer to large sample based libraries...

p.s. i been making music for decades too... not sure what your point was...

Tone Deft
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:12 am

not a loaded statement at all, just a nod to the fact that we can make music with what we have. statements that are apocalyptic in nature about the lack of 64 bit support might be a little over the top. then again, this is audioshit and I'm in complete support of any rants associated with audioshit, I love audioshit.

mostly devil's advocate talk while avoiding my job.

certainly Ableton has to stay up to par with their peers to remain compatible, keep users interested and allow us to make full use of 3rd party stuff and these crazy huge computers we can get at a reasonable price.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

anybody human
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by anybody human » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:33 am

Tone Deft wrote:not a loaded statement at all, just a nod to the fact that we can make music with what we have. statements that are apocalyptic in nature about the lack of 64 bit support might be a little over the top. then again, this is audioshit and I'm in complete support of any rants associated with audioshit, I love audioshit.

mostly devil's advocate talk while avoiding my job.

certainly Ableton has to stay up to par with their peers to remain compatible, keep users interested and allow us to make full use of 3rd party stuff and these crazy huge computers we can get at a reasonable price.
Yeah I agree with your general point and you gotta use the tools at your disposal. I've just been running into this issue lately. Plugins are getting so advanced and processor intensive and I've been thinking about getting a new computer in the near future. If and when I do it would be nice to get the most out of it all around.

H20nly
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by H20nly » Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:46 pm

i can't help but wonder if the plugins are the same as ever, but now the coders are more lax or just don't bother to worry as much about the memory utilization. meaning they might have tightened something up in the past to preserve resources and now their attitude is more like fuck it RAM is cheap, everyone should have at least 3 Gigs anyway.

So is it really a better plugin or just one that uses more resources than its 3 year old counterpart that got the job done with less?

its always funny watching/reading the feeding frenzy when some new technical stride is on the horizon... suddenly the sharks with wallet shaped fins start to swarm and within 18 months the talk around the campfire is how archaic anything is without it.
LoopStationZebra wrote:it's like a hipster commie pinko manifesto. Rambling. Angry. Nearly divorced from all reality; yet strangely compelling with a ring of truth.

doghouse
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by doghouse » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:27 pm

studiologic wrote:
doghouse wrote:you are right about PCs loaded with TBs of RAM... but there are some users that would prefer to have "access" to more than 3 GB of RAM...
Is 3GB an Ableton hard limit?

I recall when people were making music with PCs when 640K was the physical limit for DOS even though other OSes (like Mac, Atari, Amiga) supported 1 MB (or more) and had GUIs.

I also recall early samplers getting by with 64KB of RAM and players thought they had died and gone to heaven with what they could do with them.

It's all relative.

glitchrock-buddha
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by glitchrock-buddha » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:53 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
studiologic wrote:without a 64 bit upgrade/update... ableton will be kissing there east/west, kontakt, omnisphere, trillian or any large sample library user GOOD-BYE...

try loading a bass patch from trillian, piano from east/west, strings from east/west, horns/woodwinds from kontakt powered libraries, synth from omnisphere, etc...

if you look at fl studio 10... their first new feature in the advertisement is that 64 bit bridge... in the demo video... they used Kontakt to show that feature...

64 bit is now...
because nobody currently uses east/west, kontakt, omnisphere, trillian or any large sample libraries with the current versions of Live.
Oh yes they do!!

However Kontakt, Trillian and Omnisphere at least have memory servers on the mac so you don't have to load all that ram through your host. But that's mac only I believe (at least for spectrasonics). It really is impossible on a PC to play some sample instruments in Live. Even with a memory server, it only takes about 2gb ram to start causing problems in Live. You simply can't make big sets plug-ins that use a lot of ram to load like Omnisphere (240 for first instance, 140 every instance after that).

But this is the thing. Sure people have always made music with less. But there have never in history been the kind of detailed sample instruments available now like some of the stand up basses in Trilian for example. But these can only really be used properly within a host that allows for enough ram that it doesn't kill your system.

The fact is most are going to 64 bit now or already are. Personally I think Ableton need to do this before Live 9 unless Live 9 is right around the corner. It would be a lot more useful than a 64 bit audio engine is!!! I'd gladly go back to 32 bit audio for 64 bit memory management.
Professional Shark Jumper.

Tone Deft
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:54 pm

as always, well stated.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

sach160
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by sach160 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:04 pm

+1 agree with poster. It's make or break time for Ableton as a DAW.

Khazul
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by Khazul » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:01 pm

I wouldnt be at all suprised if the next Ableton Live we see is still 32 bit.
However I can imagine it shipping with a 64 bit bridge, quite possibly licensing jbridge or similar to deal with 64 bit samplers etc and at least allow moving heavy plugins into another process. Mor likely a small subset of Live wll get ported to 64 bit to provide a 64 bit process for heavy plugins.

The reason for this is I suspect that for a full migration to 64 bit a number of things probably have to happen:

1. Any licensed technologies need to be available in 64 bit (Elastique for example, which I bveleive is available as 64 bit, and of course the licensed, adapated/rebadged plugins).
2. Core engine and plugin suupport needs to work as 64 bit.
3. For now, some kind of bridge back to 32 bit plugins is still needed (or they coulod take the view they if you want to run 32 bit plugins, run 32 bit live - harsh, but possible).
4. Max For Live - I dont know how this integrated. Max/Msp AFAIK isnt 64 bit, 64 bit doesnt even seem to be on the horizon yet. In edit mode, I guess there is some kind of interprocess comms going on, so potentially it can be bridged for editing at least. As you can run stuff in the editor, then I have to assume they can bridge from a 64 bit Live to a 32 bit Max/Msp relaively easily. If not - Ugh - thats a big job.
5. If/When MAX goes 64 bit a load of really useful 3rd party externals simply wont work. For me personally some of those externals are the entire reason that I use M4L att all, so it immediately becomes totally useless until those externals are updated (assuming they ever will be). If MAX was allready available in 64 bit, I would feel alot more comfortable about this.

Now if Ableton are doing the job properly, they need to have been on it for quite some time, and will probaly need alot more time to finish the job - quite simply they have more problems to sort out than any other DAW had when they made their transitions to 64 bit (old legacy code, both OS platforms, VST and AU plugin platforms, a core engine that is simply horribly old now, then add M4L and serato bridge etc).

Im guess serato bridge is a fairly minor problem next to the rest of this lot.

So, I suspect we might see a 64 bit VST and AU bridge rather than a 64 bit application next time around - because this means its easier to keep some users happy with much screamed for core engine improvements that are long overdue and by far most importantly, keep the ableton marketting and product managers happy with new marketable features, while the techies get more time to figure WTF to do with the MAX engine...
Nothing to see here - move along!

lapieuvre
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by lapieuvre » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:33 pm

Cubase/Nuendo and ProTools are 32 bits.

I am sure Live 9 will support 64 bits. Must be one of the reason it takes so long to release.
Mac OSX 10.13.6
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Live 10.1.2 Suite
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H20nly
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by H20nly » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:02 pm

Khazul wrote:So, I suspect we might see a 64 bit VST and AU bridge rather than a 64 bit application next time around - because this means its easier to keep some users happy with much screamed for core engine improvements that are long overdue and by far most importantly, keep the ableton marketting and product managers happy with new marketable features, while the techies get more time to figure WTF to do with the MAX engine...
agreed.

I think most of the people who want/demand 64 bit are looking for extra RAM... Which Live itself doesn't actually need. All those VSTs need it. if the VSTs can access extra RAM then i think the majority of those grumbling will be appeased.
Last edited by H20nly on Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
LoopStationZebra wrote:it's like a hipster commie pinko manifesto. Rambling. Angry. Nearly divorced from all reality; yet strangely compelling with a ring of truth.

davepermen
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by davepermen » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:12 pm

they're working on it.

Image

the files are there..
http://davepermen.net my tiny webpage, including link to bandcamp.

Khazul
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by Khazul » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:50 pm

Well thats most of the licensed stuff taken care of then (Hadnt noticed those resource files before) - guess they will be busy sorting out core and all the in-house plugins and M4L integration - ie all the really big bits.

Bit odd that the 64 bit dlls should be allready in a shipping package though.
Nothing to see here - move along!

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