Everyone else is 64 bit

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
LoopStationZebra
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by LoopStationZebra » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:57 pm

glitchrock-buddha wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:
studiologic wrote:without a 64 bit upgrade/update... ableton will be kissing there east/west, kontakt, omnisphere, trillian or any large sample library user GOOD-BYE...

try loading a bass patch from trillian, piano from east/west, strings from east/west, horns/woodwinds from kontakt powered libraries, synth from omnisphere, etc...

if you look at fl studio 10... their first new feature in the advertisement is that 64 bit bridge... in the demo video... they used Kontakt to show that feature...

64 bit is now...
because nobody currently uses east/west, kontakt, omnisphere, trillian or any large sample libraries with the current versions of Live.
Oh yes they do!!

However Kontakt, Trillian and Omnisphere at least have memory servers on the mac so you don't have to load all that ram through your host. But that's mac only I believe (at least for spectrasonics). It really is impossible on a PC to play some sample instruments in Live. Even with a memory server, it only takes about 2gb ram to start causing problems in Live. You simply can't make big sets plug-ins that use a lot of ram to load like Omnisphere (240 for first instance, 140 every instance after that).

But this is the thing. Sure people have always made music with less. But there have never in history been the kind of detailed sample instruments available now like some of the stand up basses in Trilian for example. But these can only really be used properly within a host that allows for enough ram that it doesn't kill your system.

The fact is most are going to 64 bit now or already are. Personally I think Ableton need to do this before Live 9 unless Live 9 is right around the corner. It would be a lot more useful than a 64 bit audio engine is!!! I'd gladly go back to 32 bit audio for 64 bit memory management.

+1

ffs. I cannot believe there are actually folks who seem to almost arguing AGAINST 64bit. Or, at the very least, have no clue as to why it's vital and thus think there's no rush, lol.

Question: Why did Logic and FL go 64bit?
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dredd i knight
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by dredd i knight » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:05 pm

64 bit is essential for me to be able to use Trillian, although spectrasonics do a fine job of letting me thin the samples down, it's getting really frustrating to have to keep freezing to avoid the out of memory messages... In fact all spectrasonics plugs use lots of ram, as do a few orchestral packages i've got and romplers too.. :o
64 bit is current tech; it hasn't been new for about 4 years or so (well that's how long Sonar has had 64 bit operation give or take a year), and I'm surprised Ableton has taken so long to even start catching up....
It will be disappointing if Live 9 doesn't have it, or if 9 is still far away, they don't bring it to 8 at some point soon..... All it's gonna take for Live to get passed by is a good alternative to session view... Sonars matrix view falls short at the moment....

Khazul
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by Khazul » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:00 am

dredd i knight wrote:All it's gonna take for Live to get passed by is a good alternative to session view...
TBH - Ive been playing around with Maschine more lately from a performance perspective and actually Im starting to like it.

Have a couple of spaces set up on my mbp - tracktor 2 on one, maschine 1.6 on the other - works surprisingly well and I have a hell of alot more confidence without looking at the screen that when I do something with maschine controller or the x1 that it will actually do what I expect it to when I expect it to.

Too many times the friggin apc40 has just jumped back to 1,1 out of the blue so now I either make stuff fit in the 8x5 at 1,1 or check the screen before doing anything. nattiveKontrol of course improves it all drastically especially if you conver the apc40 in sticky labels.

Not wanting to turn this into an apc+live winge, but the point is in the short time Ive been working with maschine, I actually trust it more without constantly having to look at the screen before I do anything. Actually the APC+Live thing works far better live (or more trust worthy) when you treat it as a dumb controller and disable its scripts completely, remove it as a controller and remote enable it and hard midi map the thing.

So there we are - Lives unique untouchable territory well and trully conquered for some types of sets, and add traktor 2 in, the mixes of DJ style / clip performance style feel like they should work well, but not tried them live for real yet, but definately feeling far less rigid and yet more solid with them. Still need live for lights though - no M4L in Maschine...

For sample libary heavy production - well Ive a choice of logic or cubase - personally I actually much prefer the general production workflow in live to either (ignoring specific tasks like tracking, comping etc). Cubase looses outright here - at least in logic I dont feel completely like I have plan it all before touching anything. So 64 bit for me is something that become more of an issue day by day as more and more of the key sounds I use come from advanced samplers rather than just synths. What can I say - some companies (Spectrasonics, NI, Camel audio even reFx/vengeance) are doing really cool shit with sample based synths these days and in many cases the resulting sounds are easily as malleable as pure synth sounds often more so with the likes of alchemy and omnisphere.

I have to wonder how many people who produce and perform already choose to produce in live when they have other options and might choose to perform using something else when they have other options? Kind of ironic that Live looses on its home turf, and the other daws lose to live on their home turf for some people...
Nothing to see here - move along!

dredd i knight
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by dredd i knight » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:50 am

Khazul wrote:
dredd i knight wrote:All it's gonna take for Live to get passed by is a good alternative to session view...
TBH - Ive been playing around with Maschine more lately from a performance perspective and actually Im starting to like it.
Maschine's scenes are the closest thing to Lives session view, but again I find it lacking compared to Live, although I think Maschine is great in and of itself. couldn't agree more about feeling more confident whilst not looking at the screen...

davepermen
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by davepermen » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:08 am

Khazul wrote:Well thats most of the licensed stuff taken care of then (Hadnt noticed those resource files before) - guess they will be busy sorting out core and all the in-house plugins and M4L integration - ie all the really big bits.

Bit odd that the 64 bit dlls should be allready in a shipping package though.
most likely the stuff is somehow enable-able in the config files for beta-testing or something.
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Yoseph
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by Yoseph » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:07 pm

The biggest question to consider is why would you need 64-bit audio? 24-bit & 32-bit audio already exceed the threshold of dynamic range humans can endure. Why go further?

dredd i knight
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by dredd i knight » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:10 pm

Yoseph wrote:The biggest question to consider is why would you need 64-bit audio? 24-bit & 32-bit audio already exceed the threshold of dynamic range humans can endure. Why go further?
It's not about audio quality it's a question of access to more ram... for the huge vst's out there these days....
64 bit computers enable one to access lots of ram.

LoopStationZebra
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by LoopStationZebra » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:24 pm

dredd i knight wrote: it's a question of access to more ram... for the huge vst's out there these days....

That's exactly right. I mean, plugins ARE the DAWs, lol.

There's also the issue of running a ton of other programs at once, and making sure they are all 64bit in order to get the memory allocations they deserve. :lol:
I came for the :lol:
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glitchrock-buddha
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by glitchrock-buddha » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:43 pm

Yoseph wrote:The biggest question to consider is why would you need 64-bit audio? 24-bit & 32-bit audio already exceed the threshold of dynamic range humans can endure. Why go further?
I'm not sure that's a question we need to consider at all actually, given that Live already has 64 bit audio. You don't think we'd all be screaming for a new feature that already came with Live 7 do you? :P
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Yoseph
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by Yoseph » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:43 am

Whoops. I misunderstood what this thread was talking about

...yeah

anybody human
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by anybody human » Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:36 pm

While asking support about setting up a new computer I'm getting, I asked about this. I was told theyare programming in 64bit already, but even they don't know at this point if this will happen for Live 9, a couple months after or a couple months before as a Live 8 update. But it will happen and they're already working on it. Good enough for me.

And don't start with "It should be a Live 8 update even though I bought Live 8 irrespective of 64 bit, because I was promised Share and I've had crashes". It will be ready when it's ready.

Edit: I was told it's a 64 bit application, not just a bridge. I hope I'm not out of line by saying this, just thought it was relevant to the conversation.

catsandwich
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by catsandwich » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:23 am

anybody human wrote:While asking support about setting up a new computer I'm getting, I asked about this. I was told theyare programming in 64bit already, but even they don't know at this point if this will happen for Live 9, a couple months after or a couple months before as a Live 8 update. But it will happen and they're already working on it. Good enough for me.

And don't start with "It should be a Live 8 update even though I bought Live 8 irrespective of 64 bit, because I was promised Share and I've had crashes". It will be ready when it's ready.

Edit: I was told it's a 64 bit application, not just a bridge. I hope I'm not out of line by saying this, just thought it was relevant to the conversation.
I've gone through a 64bit port on the development side. There is no way in hell L8 will be x64 with an update.

agent314
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by agent314 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:27 am

What actually has to be done to make an application 64 bit? Like, do you have to change every place it calls into memory, or change variable types, or what?

Machinesworking
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:42 am

I know what I'll love about a 64 bit Live, being able to have every freaking song loaded into a single Live Set in RAM without any worries about disc access. Some plugins and disc access for large libraries glitch, definitely better in RAM than streaming. I'm in no rush though, my laptop doesn't do 64 bit OSX even. 64 bit is still a year off for me whether Ableton released it today or not.

Guessing time on when it comes out, IMO June announcement of Live 9 beta, 64 bit support. I doubt a Live 8 64 bit version, too close to Live 9. There will be many forum posts about how Ableton owe people 64 bit support for Live 8 bugs.

Pasha
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Re: Everyone else is 64 bit

Post by Pasha » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:04 am

Tone Deft wrote:
studiologic wrote:without a 64 bit upgrade/update... ableton will be kissing there east/west, kontakt, omnisphere, trillian or any large sample library user GOOD-BYE...

try loading a bass patch from trillian, piano from east/west, strings from east/west, horns/woodwinds from kontakt powered libraries, synth from omnisphere, etc...

if you look at fl studio 10... their first new feature in the advertisement is that 64 bit bridge... in the demo video... they used Kontakt to show that feature...

64 bit is now...
because nobody currently uses east/west, kontakt, omnisphere, trillian or any large sample libraries with the current versions of Live.

people act like they can't make music on a computer without the latest evolution in software. we've been doing it for decades.

relax, everything will be fine.
+1 TD!

Music is the artist not the plugin. What we have today if used and known (including 3rd party plugs) is more than enough to compose and produce good music IMHO.

- Best
- Pasha
Apple Desktop / Laptop
Live 9 Suite,Zebra 2.6,Guitar, Bass, VG99, JV1010 and some controllers
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