Blah blah you, and your 30% off!

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
LoopStationZebra
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Re: Blah blah you, and your 30% off!

Post by LoopStationZebra » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:16 am

stringtapper wrote:
LoopStationZebra wrote:The fact that there is still a free runtime of MAX = :x
There's a very specific reason why the Max runtime exists and it's not necessarily about people getting free toys to play with.

It's for computer musicians (read: avant garde/academic/high art composers) who need their work to able to run on computers that don't have full Max installed so that their compositions/installations can be performed. The usual method is to carry the Max runtime on a thumb drive/CD-R or download it on to the machine you're using to run the performance. With the advent of powerful laptops the usefulness of the Max runtime is almost certainly declining.

And because a potential M4L runtime would have to run inside a licensed copy of Live anyway this original purpose of the Max runtime becomes moot in this context.

So existence of the Max runtime seems to have had a psychological effect on people to make them think that Cycling '74 was promoting some kind of quasi-open community solution for people to get cool free toys to play with when that wasn't really what it was about.
It may not be what it was about, but that's certainly a large part of what it's become. C74 can deny that or support it all they want, but reality is reality. As Angstrom pointed out - and it's something I've echoed in the past - the MAX runtime has no doubt brought untold numbers of people to the full Max/MSP world. I came to the full Live version from a free Live Lite that came with some piece of shit M-Audio product I bought years ago.

There's so many ample examples of that kind of business model in the software world, it's hard to know where to even begin. Adobe has done it countless of times with great success. AutoDesk has done it. Etc

I'm not expecting something for nothing. I'm willing to pay a price.

I'm realizing that this is now my 6th post or so on this subject - spread out over 2 forum sections no less, lol. :lol: I've said what I wanted to say. I shouldn't have said anything because it's just a waste of fucking time. Neither Ableton or C74 seem to give a shit. Good for them. As more and more cool iPad shit comes out (like Control with full JavaScript capabilities! Hello!), in one year's time I prolly won't even remember what M4L is....unless they include it free with Live9. :lol:
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LoopStationZebra
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Re: Blah blah you, and your 30% off!

Post by LoopStationZebra » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:33 am

God, I sound so bitchy.

I would love a runtime because of the cool shit being done that could help me with live performances and overall sound creation. It's a shame that the full version wasn't 50% off. It's a shame there's no $50 runtime

At the end of the day, after all things considered, it's not me who's really losing out because there's still like 5 million things that I can be focusing on that will help me be a better artist. M4L is merely one. But ts the one that Ableton makes money on, lol.

Shit.. I STILL sound bitchy. :x
Last edited by LoopStationZebra on Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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stringtapper
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Re: Blah blah you, and your 30% off!

Post by stringtapper » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:34 am

LoopStationZebra wrote:Neither Ableton or C74 seem to give a shit. Good for them.
I don't think that's true. I think it's most likely that they're trying to figure out the best way to make a M4L runtime happen. I see this latest push with the line of "celeb" M4L devices as perhaps them putting the feelers out there to see if they can drum up enough support for people to start jumping on it without having to make a runtime. Even though I personally think the included content+"celeb" devices+maxforlive.com content is actually worth the $300 even if I wasn't programming with M4L, I still don't think that all that will be enough (obviously, with all the people still clamoring for a runtime). I think they're going to have to put their heads together and make some more devices of the same caliber as Henke's Granulator for people to stop caring whether there's a runtime.
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Tone Deft
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Re: Blah blah you, and your 30% off!

Post by Tone Deft » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:37 am

pulsoc wrote:Set up an "app store" platform. Buy runtime versions there. People can post free plugs or charge. If they charge, ableton and cycling skim a little off the top for themselves, the developer pockets the rest.
I'd really hate to see m4L devices locked up. there's a great culture with max stuff that people openly share what they do. this really helps people learn and allows people to springboard new devices off of older ones. it would suck to see that go away just so people can make a buck.

make a runtime, cripple it. give people a taste of m4L, they'll buy it just to be users.
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LoopStationZebra
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Re: Blah blah you, and your 30% off!

Post by LoopStationZebra » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:48 am

@ST Yeah, good points.

For a long time after M4L was released it seems like all you saw was monome related shit, lol. Actual integrators or emulators or whatever. That was interesting for about 2.5 seconds, but in that span of time and afterward I didn't see anything Earth Shattering, so I kinda lost interest. I think that's not uncommon. That's not to say there wasn't cool stuff out there....I just didn't care anymore. There was even talk of how, just like in the Max world, tons of patches were barely functional or didn't really work or the quality was suspect or whatever.

Then word of hoff's 16macros patch and the Granulator hit, and suddenly I'm interested again. A lot of people are. Then the discount offer and then me bitching about a runtime, lol.

Christ, I don't know what I'm saying. I'm going to stop now. Okay, not quite yet:

Ableton: I've got $50 in my pocket with your name on it for a runtime. I've got $150 in my pocket with your name on it for a discounted version of the full M4L.

That money will always be there. Waiting for you. Whenever you're ready. Just let me know. :P :x
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stringtapper
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Re: Blah blah you, and your 30% off!

Post by stringtapper » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:16 am

LoopStationZebra wrote:For a long time after M4L was released it seems like all you saw was monome related shit, lol. Actual integrators or emulators or whatever. That was interesting for about 2.5 seconds, but in that span of time and afterward I didn't see anything Earth Shattering, so I kinda lost interest. I think that's not uncommon. That's not to say there wasn't cool stuff out there....I just didn't care anymore. There was even talk of how, just like in the Max world, tons of patches were barely functional or didn't really work or the quality was suspect or whatever.
And this is all endemic to the fact that Max is after all a programming language. The reason a lot of Max patches floating out there don't seem to work is because in many cases people make them with their own setups in mind, to solve their own individual musical problems. This is probably always going to be the case except for very popular uses (monome, APC40 hacks, things DJs want, etc.). That is until we start seeing plugin developers dip into the Max for Live market. Hard to say if/when that will happen. Certainly hasn't in any big way, but it's only been a year and a half.
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Tone Deft
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Re: Blah blah you, and your 30% off!

Post by Tone Deft » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:35 am

LoopStationZebra wrote:For a long time after M4L was released it seems like all you saw was monome related shit, lol. Actual integrators or emulators or whatever. That was interesting for about 2.5 seconds, but in that span of time and afterward I didn't see anything Earth Shattering, so I kinda lost interest. I think that's not uncommon. That's not to say there wasn't cool stuff out there....I just didn't care anymore. There was even talk of how, just like in the Max world, tons of patches were barely functional or didn't really work or the quality was suspect or whatever.
says the vapid hater who has done nothing but shit on m4L from hi Luddite sofa from m4L's inception.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

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Machinesworking
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Re: Fuck you, and your 30% off!

Post by Machinesworking » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:24 am

delicioso wrote: Maybe they can learn from NI's business model? They seem to be running a successful business while also having a free "runtime version" of Reaktor.
Actually, Reaktor did used to have a runtime version, that could load any Reaktor ensemble. They discontinued it in favor of Kore and Reaktor "players" that only work with specific instruments/effects. I think if anything you might see Cycling/Ableton come up with a way to sell "player" versions of peoples work in an App Store style way, but that seems like an awful lot of work software wise for little profit, so I doubt it.

$300 is cheaper than ReaKtor, and I've yet to make anything of real use in Reactor, but I've used the hell out of it.
I really don't get it? It's a great tool, that most people don't need, that costs a lot of money to upkeep. I doubt any salaries at Cycling 74 are mind blowing, and your basic soft synth is about $150 in price, it's easy enough to say that Max for Live is worth at least two soft synths. :|

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Re: Blah blah you, and your 30% off!

Post by hoffman2k » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:18 am

pulsoc wrote:Ok here's the smartest idea I ever had.

Sell two version, full and runtime. Runtime $50 or something.

Set up an "app store" platform. Buy runtime versions there. People can post free plugs or charge. If they charge, ableton and cycling skim a little off the top for themselves, the developer pockets the rest.

You sell a shit ton of runtimes, the corporate guys take some off the top, then as every lamebrain comes up with a "must-have" idea, they buy the full version and start creating m4l masterpieces.

This is a no brainer guys.
How would commercial patches be protected from just being copied and distributed under a different name?

fx23
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Re: Blah blah you, and your 30% off!

Post by fx23 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:52 am

i also think they should make a system to be able to lock and sell comercial patch.

then if bunddle a free/cheap runtime with L9, every user can use for free/buy or demo patchs, but without patching/moding possibilities.
if wanna go deeper and patch for their own, user then buys full M4L.

that way every user can see the potential an benefits from MFL, without spending 300 bucks,
and if feel wanna dive into the creating side, he will surely feel it's cheap once deeply tried.
if a user bank is accessible via store or website, but usable for every user, then im pretty sure too
it's a win scenario vs creating an actual gap vs MFL/non MFL users.

it will surely boost the will of creating killer quality patchs that could be charged for, with as pulsoc said
some commercial revenues to booth patcher and cycling/ableton. And if a load of cool free stuff it will
remove any potential M4L anger due to the frustration of not being able to use the stuff.

JAMM
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Re: Blah blah you, and your 30% off!

Post by JAMM » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:06 am

I like the pulsoc idea off a sort ableton appstore
There you can only buy (range 05 to 20 euro) units you like or need.

andydes
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Re: Blah blah you, and your 30% off!

Post by andydes » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:30 am

Who hijacked this thread and turned it into a sensible discussion? Shame on you.

3phase
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Re: Blah blah you, and your 30% off!

Post by 3phase » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:44 am

Tone Deft wrote:
pulsoc wrote:Set up an "app store" platform. Buy runtime versions there. People can post free plugs or charge. If they charge, ableton and cycling skim a little off the top for themselves, the developer pockets the rest.
I'd really hate to see m4L devices locked up. there's a great culture with max stuff that people openly share what they do. this really helps people learn and allows people to springboard new devices off of older ones. it would suck to see that go away just so people can make a buck.

make a runtime, cripple it. give people a taste of m4L, they'll buy it just to be users.

That sharing will go away now..at least in while.
Ableton trys to make personal profit out of that sharing concept and is corrupting it this way.
On the long run it will therefore collapse because its not a sharing system anymore..
its a producer and consumer concept..
where a few create for the masses while the financial benefits only arrive at ableton.. What will work for a while because the max patchers enslave themself willingly..first to learn the abstract software..than to show what they have learned..
So the release of a max patch will replace for them the release of a musical piece..that anyway gets lost becauase of the overfilled market... That mainly is filled with generic ableton productions that use theese max patches.. Profits only for ableton..sample cd sellers..and rectified rainers.. plug in producers will suffer by the free work within the max comunity...
and the max patchers themself?

I would say its fair when especially well made patches recive somekind of fee...
And when ableton themself promote this new idead of one way "sharing" they should pay that fee

In the end all this all has the ableton style handwriting on it.. that makes users to free betatters..and now to free developers.. while the rainers pay to be promoters.. thats really clever..like one big family.. nice
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ansiaaa
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Re: Blah blah you, and your 30% off!

Post by ansiaaa » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:56 am

what I got from this thread is this:
1. Ableton gives M4L free or with a very good discount (50% or 30% are both very good for something that you actually WANT. or at least I guess you really want it, I hope so!)
2. people doesn't like that and suggest to pay for a runtime and to pay for the various patches and instruments that are now FREE if you have M4L
3. ...
4. profit! (not really :P)

if you value so much the things you get and you can do once you have M4L, buy it now while there is a discount and start enjoying everything that comes with it!

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Re: Blah blah you, and your 30% off!

Post by 3phase » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:08 pm

ansiaaa wrote:what I got from this thread is this:
1. Ableton gives M4L free or with a very good discount (50% or 30% are both very good for something that you actually WANT. or at least I guess you really want it, I hope so!)
2. people doesn't like that and suggest to pay for a runtime and to pay for the various patches and instruments that are now FREE if you have M4L
3. ...
4. profit! (not really :P)

if you value so much the things you get and you can do once you have M4L, buy it now while there is a discount and start enjoying everything that comes with it!

in relation to a full max licence m4L is a bargain.. no question about that and even without reductions..

just that you are forced to use it one the one hand and the quite open declaration that further development of the core program itself is now in the hand of a hord of wild max patchers, on the other hand, dont sounds promissing

That core of the program is too nerdy from the handling allready somehow.

And that nerdiness is implemeted in the painfull handling of max itself, that is so much oposing music making..at least from a hardware standpoint.. from a c++ standpoint its probably like playing a moog syntheziser.. but for us unliterate people? Wouldnt it maybe better to start with phyton and go from there to max to be able to really enjoy it?
At least we can be certain that more generic music will come over us... but now its not repetativ anymore thanks to the algorythmic creativity replacers and randomizers patched in max.
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