Nice new M4LAPI effects, great but flawed?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
queglay
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Re: Nice new M4LAPI effects, great but flawed?

Post by queglay » Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:02 pm

but the scale min and max only needs to be set once when it is first mapped unless im mistaken? not every time you get an updated value.

in my case the drum rack is the exception for multiple devices because when you touch a pad you have automaticly selected the chain for that pad. so i need the macros in each chain to point back at the single maschine vst for the parameters of that sound.

if only i could get more than 128 parameters. still 8 for each sound is nice.
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hoffman2k
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Re: Nice new M4LAPI effects, great but flawed?

Post by hoffman2k » Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:37 pm

queglay wrote:but the scale min and max only needs to be set once when it is first mapped unless im mistaken? not every time you get an updated value.
There's definitely some room to cut overhead. This might be one example. There is definitely more that could be better…
I also have to take a good look at all the neat stuff that is added for Push.

queglay
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Re: Nice new M4LAPI effects, great but flawed?

Post by queglay » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:34 pm

I'd be happy to share my version of the patch with you when im done, but it will probably end up being quite a different beast to what you intended.
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hoffman2k
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Re: Nice new M4LAPI effects, great but flawed?

Post by hoffman2k » Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:53 pm

queglay wrote:I'd be happy to share my version of the patch with you when im done, but it will probably end up being quite a different beast to what you intended.
That is the fun of it all :D
I'm glad there are bits in there that help.

TomViolenz
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Re: Nice new M4LAPI effects, great but flawed?

Post by TomViolenz » Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:33 am

You all seem to use the 16 Macro device, so I wonder if you are happy with the smoothness of the macros.
I tried to use it once, but it behaved quite differently than the normal macros in Live regarding this. Maybe that's because I used it through the STC script, but parameter change was very choppy. I tried it on an EQ8 filter freq, but a filter sweep was out of the question this way. So I had to return to having only 8 macros.

Beyond this, I would be very much in favour of having a 32, 64 or even 128 Macro device 8O ! (I don't know how the last two would display on the sceen though).
What I really like about macros (as opposed to just banking) is that you always see the dials on the screen and that you can define a range for the parameter. This does not sound like much, but it makes quite a difference to me even with Push.

BTW: Someone mentioned here he made a LFO device where several parameters can get controlled by the LFO. Where do I find this?

queglay
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Re: Nice new M4LAPI effects, great but flawed?

Post by queglay » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:11 pm

to be honest i cannot use it in its default state because all automation gets recorded twice. also there are feedback problems with the mapped dial getting sent back to the macro dial.

I have decided to get around this by making two modes. a bidirectional mode where the target dial can send back to the original macro as it currently exists. this isn't used for automation. the second mode disables this feature, it becomes one way and uses live.remote to disable recording of the second control. this seems to work well for me.

an lfo would be sweet if it could be assigned to another dial on push without using the screen. i haven't seen anything like this yet.
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hoffman2k
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Re: Nice new M4LAPI effects, great but flawed?

Post by hoffman2k » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:47 pm

TomViolenz wrote:You all seem to use the 16 Macro device, so I wonder if you are happy with the smoothness of the macros.
I tried to use it once, but it behaved quite differently than the normal macros in Live regarding this. Maybe that's because I used it through the STC script, but parameter change was very choppy. I tried it on an EQ8 filter freq, but a filter sweep was out of the question this way. So I had to return to having only 8 macros.

Beyond this, I would be very much in favour of having a 32, 64 or even 128 Macro device 8O ! (I don't know how the last two would display on the sceen though).
What I really like about macros (as opposed to just banking) is that you always see the dials on the screen and that you can define a range for the parameter. This does not sound like much, but it makes quite a difference to me even with Push.

BTW: Someone mentioned here he made a LFO device where several parameters can get controlled by the LFO. Where do I find this?
There are a few control issues that have been reported. Chopiness means mismatch of speed between either the MIDI drivers or scripts involved. Which has been a pain to track down.
3.0 will definitely be a large open beta, since the high number of users.

I know Ableton's Macros can do more than mine, which essentially just map.
So that is going to be addressed too.
Though I feel it might be better served as an add-on device. I want the next version to be really lightweight. Mapping one knob to multiple things is fun. But I'd like to go further and be able to skip parts of a range. For example avoiding the triplets in synced parameters and having thresholds so that a new envelope shape takes effect when a new sync rate is chosen.

The biggest joy of Max is also its biggest downfall. Anything is possible and can most likely be done in an easier way than you already have it working.

On the list so far for improvements:

- Mapping to a button displays an actual button instead of Dial

- Toggle between custom and real parameter names

- Make sure the names display on Push, Mackie and Novation displays

- No more unwanted Undo entries

- Add on Macro device that links to any chosen Dial on Sixteen Macros

- Linking multiple Sixteen Macros devices, so a preset change affects all devices. Means unlimited Macros. Devices don't have to be on the same Track

- Minimized view (just the dials, everything else hidden) and maybe a floating window option

- Gotta have OSC with Lemur Template. And support for the other players in iOS-land.

- And Queglay actually just reminded me of the most important reason to go from scratch... Session Automation! And Max 6... And probably should add more comments in the patch...

Yeah sorry, I'm amped up to jump in again and this is all mostly cheerleading for myself. Put up or shut up as they say. But I'm all open to collaboration on this one. I'll be honest, I got a busy job now and any programming progress has been slowass. This will be a thing of months, not a quick weekend. The most important thing to solve is the Undo problem, which is the whole thing that put me off MFL coding for a while in the first place. Because I use Live.remote~ to store the ID in presets and sets, it creates this undo problem. But that ID saving thing was basically like a magic feature that they added since Live 8.2.2. If you turn it off, you need to store the actual paths. Which get messy when you start dragging around devices and tracks. Not just being able to turn the Undo creation off is retarded and I failed to convince anybody important of that. So yeah, now its sorta back to how 1.0 worked with storing large lists of text that have to monitored constantly for changes instead of an elegant matrix of Magic ID's.

TomViolenz
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Re: Nice new M4LAPI effects, great but flawed?

Post by TomViolenz » Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:21 am

Hey hoffman2k,
this is some juicy and mouth watering stuff right there.
If you get this working flawlessly (i.e. no choppiness!) I would be very willing to pay for this in the order of a regular vst. (let's say 50 bucks), because this would enhance Lives workflow for me more than most of them!
Is there a way you could then even transfer it to be a real Live device, so not only M4L owners could use it and M4L wouldn't have to run in the background either?

Regarding some of this:

But I'd like to go further and be able to skip parts of a range. For example avoiding the triplets in synced parameters and having thresholds so that a new envelope shape takes effect when a new sync rate is chosen.
Yes please! This could be also great for pitch and and other non-continuous parameters, but even some continuous ones, that have a region they sound good in, then one where they sound awful, and then one again where they sound good.
Mapping to a button displays an actual button instead of Dial
Yes! But make it then smaller in the gui so it integrates among the dials better (Maybe even put them above or below the dials). If you could then somehow get Push to also trigger this via buttons in addition to the 8 encoders (from the 16 smaller buttons in the top, right below the encoders) and it can also step through parameters (like your triplet example above) I may actually double the money I would be willing to spend on this. (Too bad there is probably no way to do this though, right?!)
Linking multiple Sixteen Macros devices, so a preset change affects all devices. Means unlimited Macros. Devices don't have to be on the same Track
This! That they could be from different tracks would even more than double the usefulness of just having unlimited dials. This is almost like making your own control surface.

Minimized view (just the dials, everything else hidden) and maybe a floating window option
yes to the first, meh to the second. That's what I love about Lives and M4L devices, they never hide anything! (I might change my mind on this though, considering you want to make it able to control devices on different tracks - there a floating window may be the only sensible option)
Just thinking: maybe you could even give it the view area that for example EQ8 and the zone editor use? This would slowly turn Live into a producing cockpit 8O


I would also like to see some sort of "bank" selection. Many controllers come with 8 encoders and some buttons (Push, APC40 even the cheap Nocturn), make it possible to choose with a button which 8 dials of the many get controlled by the 8 encoders. Making me able to assign my own names to the banks (and reuse the bank buttons on Push), would be icing, on the icing on this cake :-)
Yeah sorry, I'm amped up to jump in again and this is all mostly cheerleading for myself.
As you should be, I'm amped up just reading about your plans. You're quite a tease ;-)
But I'm all open to collaboration on this one
Oh I wish I could help, but there are already a lot of words in this thread, that I don't even know the meaning of…
:oops:
This will be a thing of months, not a quick weekend.
Hurry up and take my money ;-) :mrgreen:

Hermanus
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Re: Nice new M4LAPI effects, great but flawed?

Post by Hermanus » Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:35 am

hoffman2k wrote:
2) The difference between having control over automation/modulation in a device or not, is nothing more than setting an option for the parameters you want to control. The parameter visibility is probably set to "Stored" while you want "Automated and Stored".

I agree with the process but I cant stop thinking "why haven't they implemented "automated and stored" by default"

TomViolenz
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Re: Nice new M4LAPI effects, great but flawed?

Post by TomViolenz » Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:44 am

Oh, I forgot one point of my wishlist: :mrgreen: Make it possible to assign to the macros via Push, without using the Mouse!

hoffman2k
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Re: Nice new M4LAPI effects, great but flawed?

Post by hoffman2k » Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:40 pm

Hermanus wrote:
hoffman2k wrote:
2) The difference between having control over automation/modulation in a device or not, is nothing more than setting an option for the parameters you want to control. The parameter visibility is probably set to "Stored" while you want "Automated and Stored".

I agree with the process but I cant stop thinking "why haven't they implemented "automated and stored" by default"
Depends on what the device creator was going for I suppose. Automated and Stored means if one thing controls another, you have 2 recordings. Hidden means you can't map to it. So "stored" might be the best option.

Macrostructure
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Re: Nice new M4LAPI effects, great but flawed?

Post by Macrostructure » Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:55 pm

I'm out of the loop these last two years but don't tell me this shit still is not fixed or made better? Sheesh....

hoffman2k
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Re: Nice new M4LAPI effects, great but flawed?

Post by hoffman2k » Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:58 pm

TomViolenz wrote:Oh, I forgot one point of my wishlist: :mrgreen: Make it possible to assign to the macros via Push, without using the Mouse!
Before Push was announced ST8 built a prototype controller that can do some of these things without MFL.
The problem isn't money but time. Both working busy jobs and this season isn't known for the tons of free time we get. So yeah, its all a peace of cake apart from the "hurry up" part :wink:

http://q3f.org/develop/livedevice/

hoffman2k
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Re: Nice new M4LAPI effects, great but flawed?

Post by hoffman2k » Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:01 pm

Macrostructure wrote:I'm out of the loop these last two years but don't tell me this shit still is not fixed or made better? Sheesh....
I'm out of the loop too. This was from past memory. I have to dig in again to see what all the fun stuff is that they added for Push and the effect of automation versus the options there are now.

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