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Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:36 pm
by 3phase
Angstrom wrote:
3phase wrote: but what is that text string do actually? is it only affecting the midi handling? and are the resulting midi events than placed at the timeline + audio offset delay and therfore the playback track needs to get a manual negativ track delay?

why isnt that a problem in any other daw?
When play-through is on: it will take any incoming note (lets say it comes in on 8.1.1), it will take a look at the current PDC and see that there is a system latency of (lets say) 15ms, and because it thinks you have played 15ms ahead of the beat in order to manually compensate for the system's latency it will put the recorded note 15ms back from 8.1.1 . The resulting recorded MIDI note will now be visible on the timeline actually later than you played it.

When the text string is active it turns off this guessing system. It stops Live from thinking you played ahead of the beat, which means the system now knows that you are NOT playing ahead of the beat, so it should NOT try to move the note backward in time by 15 ms.

I could write a lot on the madness of "Play Through", but it makes me angry just thinking about it.
If I do write about it, it may be best to put it in its own thread, explaining in detail what it is and how to stop it, and why you might want to. The topic is possibly to large for a thread about something completely different.

I have voiced my displeasure to the Abletons in strong terms
even thinking about it now makes me want to hurt something.

sounds like a wonderfull entry for my detail problem list but would make a usefull own thread aswdell.. i prefer threads that show problems and workarounds before i run myself into them..and live is so very rich in this regard..

Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:53 pm
by owlmerlyn
Angstrom wrote:I could write a lot on the madness of "Play Through", but it makes me angry just thinking about it.
If I do write about it, it may be best to put it in its own thread, explaining in detail what it is and how to stop it, and why you might want to. The topic is possibly to large for a thread about something completely different.

I have voiced my displeasure to the Abletons in strong terms
even thinking about it now makes me want to hurt something.
Thank god I found this thread and learned about the option of turning this bizarre play through "feature" off. Like you I wanted to take a hammer to my pc when recording midi, it really is one of the most stupid options on a DAW I've ever come across - I was speachless when I came across it. And although I love pretty much the rest of Live I was wondering whether I should migrate to another DAW just so I could get back to recording live Midi again. Well at least I dont have to do that now.

Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:04 am
by steff3
Well, there is something that is called Max For Live .... MIDI delay - no problem with Max For Live, Sysex - no problem ...

Eventlist would be possible if you transfer the MIDI to Max, or, of course, if you use the Max part to record and edit MIDI.

The only thing that seems impossible - do not know why - is to have it run with reasonable load - for a direct integration it seems quite ridiculous how much load it produces.

best

Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:36 am
by hoffman2k
steff3 wrote:Well, there is something that is called Max For Live .... MIDI delay - no problem with Max For Live, Sysex - no problem ...

Eventlist would be possible if you transfer the MIDI to Max, or, of course, if you use the Max part to record and edit MIDI.

The only thing that seems impossible - do not know why - is to have it run with reasonable load - for a direct integration it seems quite ridiculous how much load it produces.

best
Image

Been there, done that ;)

http://www.thecovertoperators.org/Live- ... collection

Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:28 am
by crumhorn
Another work around for the play through compensation without editing options.txt uses two tracks.

The track you record on contains no instrument and has monitor turned off. Route the output from that track to a second track that contains the instrument and has monitoring turned on.

Your MIDI events will then be recorded as they are received without latency compensation.

The only problem I have noticed with this is to do with the way that Live pre-loads samples. If the instrument is in the same track as the MIDI clip it seems to pre-load the samples it needs for that clip. If you reroute the MIDI to another track it seems not to do this and so can glitch if your memory is full or the disk is busy.


@ 3Phase, with regard to the random errors, do you only get this with LIVE.

I'm on PC which works completely different from Mac but own measurements have led me to the conclusion that the randomness comes from the actual MIDI device and device drivers / OS (It's not really possible to separate them).

The measurement was done by routing MIDI data from a midi clip back into Live via various combinations of MIDI device. I found that If I used MIDIYoke to route the output back into Live that the timing was exact. But physical MIDI devices introduced various amounts of jitter, worst case being my old M-Audio suond card, best case being my BCR2000. New Presonus soundcard somewhere in between.

Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:07 am
by dazzer
Hold on... The solution to my crap timing all these years is to edit a txt file?

Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:26 pm
by Palmer Eldritch
Hi,

as far as I know, the option text "StrictDelayCompensation" has nothing to do with the placement of recorded midi notes.

To give a short explanation:

If PDC is on, Live is delaying every Track at a certain amount so that every track is playing in sync with each other.
This means that a track without plug-ins and therefore with no latency (except the latency of the audio interface) had to be delayed at the amount of the latency of that track with the highest latency in the live-set.

As an example, if the track with the highest latency in the live-set has a latency of one second then the track without latency had to be delayed for one second to play in sync with this other track.
Another track with a plug-in which has a latency of 250 ms had to be delayed for 750 ms to match.

Normally (without this option text), if you play a midi instrument in a track with less latency it will be played as fast as possible (means that there is only the latency of this particular track -not the latency of the track with the highest latency-).

This is very useful in a case like above where a certain track gives a (very) high latency to the whole system.
But there are also problems with this method.
For example, if you have an arpeggiator on the track where you try to record, then the arpeggiator is out of sync as long as this track is record enabled.
Also sending a signal from this track to a return track could be problematic as long as this track is record enabled, especially if there are high latency plug-ins on the return track.
There might be other problems I am not aware yet.

If this option text is set, now also record-enabled tracks will be delayed to the track with the highest latency in the live-set.
Disadvantage of this method is (in the case of the example above) that you will hear every instruments, which you try to play, one second late (plus the amount of the latency of your audio-interface).

As Crumhorn has mentioned above, the placement of recordings is dependent of the state of the monitor switch.
But In my little tests it seems (not sure yet) that Live places the midi notes to early when the monitor button is switched off (maybe Live assumes that I try to play a hardware midi-device but hear its output thru the software mixer of Live).

Hopefully this was in some degree understandable :|

cheers, palmer

Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:41 pm
by dazzer
Well maybe I need to RTFM to see what's going on. But invariably I play soft synths with a MIDI controller and record with "monitor auto" and my stuff comes out as if I've played too late.

(in my defense about not reading manuals, I just do stuff and if it works (or in this case kind of works but badly) I just assume that's the way to do it. Wrong approach, no?)

Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:53 pm
by crumhorn
dazzer wrote:Well maybe I need to RTFM to see what's going on. But invariably I play soft synths with a MIDI controller and record with "monitor auto" and my stuff comes out as if I've played too late.

(in my defense about not reading manuals, I just do stuff and if it works (or in this case kind of works but badly) I just assume that's the way to do it. Wrong approach, no?)
It is a pain in the arse! and having to set up an extra track for monitoring through is also a PITA, especially when you take into account the strange pre-loading behaviour which means you have to move all your recorded clips onto the track containing the instrument for reliable play back.

Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:50 pm
by dazzer
Well I just gave options. txt a go and for the use I described it worked like a charm. Glory be.

Angstrom, have a drink on me, I've officially forgiven you now for dissing me about 5 years ago when I asked how to make a woosh sound.

Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:41 pm
by Angstrom
dazzer wrote:Well I just gave options. txt a go and for the use I described it worked like a charm. Glory be.

Angstrom, have a drink on me, I've officially forgiven you now for dissing me about 5 years ago when I asked how to make a woosh sound.
Er, thanks ... in curiosity and some surprise I looked up this thread you mentioned. You remembered something quite minor for quite a long time! (6 years)
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27000
You didn't seem that bothered back then!
Internet is a serious business

Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:54 pm
by dazzer
Angstrom wrote:
dazzer wrote:Well I just gave options. txt a go and for the use I described it worked like a charm. Glory be.

Angstrom, have a drink on me, I've officially forgiven you now for dissing me about 5 years ago when I asked how to make a woosh sound.
Er, thanks ... in curiosity and some surprise I looked up this thread you mentioned. You remembered something quite minor for quite a long time! (6 years)
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27000
You didn't seem that bothered back then!
Internet is a serious business
Nah, just joshing. I wanted to write something funny and was racking my brains to see if we'd ever crossed paths on the forum before and then remembered the woosh.

On a related note, somebody PMed me once apologising for telling me to fuck off. I didn't remember the incident so searched for it and it had happened a year or two previously. Weird

On an unrelated note, does anyone wanna buy a copy of Operator? http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=168813

(That's why I'm hanging around on the forum so much at the moment.)

Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:11 pm
by Angstrom
Ah good, I did hope it was a joke, it looked like one, and I laughed. So that was a good sign ...
... but on teh webz you can never be too sure ;-)

Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:19 pm
by owlmerlyn
dazzer wrote:Well I just gave options. txt a go and for the use I described it worked like a charm. Glory be.
Yep, it makes midi recording work as it "should" (in my humble opinion).

Angstrom, have another drink on me :)

Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:28 pm
by owlmerlyn
Palmer Eldritch wrote:Hi,

as far as I know, the option text "StrictDelayCompensation" has nothing to do with the placement of recorded midi notes.

To give a short explanation:

If PDC is on, Live is delaying every Track at a certain amount so that every track is playing in sync with each other.
This means that a track without plug-ins and therefore with no latency (except the latency of the audio interface) had to be delayed at the amount of the latency of that track with the highest latency in the live-set.

As an example, if the track with the highest latency in the live-set has a latency of one second then the track without latency had to be delayed for one second to play in sync with this other track.
Another track with a plug-in which has a latency of 250 ms had to be delayed for 750 ms to match.

Normally (without this option text), if you play a midi instrument in a track with less latency it will be played as fast as possible (means that there is only the latency of this particular track -not the latency of the track with the highest latency-).

This is very useful in a case like above where a certain track gives a (very) high latency to the whole system.
But there are also problems with this method.
For example, if you have an arpeggiator on the track where you try to record, then the arpeggiator is out of sync as long as this track is record enabled.
Also sending a signal from this track to a return track could be problematic as long as this track is record enabled, especially if there are high latency plug-ins on the return track.
There might be other problems I am not aware yet.

If this option text is set, now also record-enabled tracks will be delayed to the track with the highest latency in the live-set.
Disadvantage of this method is (in the case of the example above) that you will hear every instruments, which you try to play, one second late (plus the amount of the latency of your audio-interface).

As Crumhorn has mentioned above, the placement of recordings is dependent of the state of the monitor switch.
But In my little tests it seems (not sure yet) that Live places the midi notes to early when the monitor button is switched off (maybe Live assumes that I try to play a hardware midi-device but hear its output thru the software mixer of Live).

Hopefully this was in some degree understandable :|

cheers, palmer
Not sure that I understand what you mean here, but as far as I can see Play Through does delay midi so that it plays back "in time" if you were playing ahead of the beat whilst recording to compensate for the delay caused by system latency. Sound confusing? Probably, but then the concept of Play Through confused me to begin with, and its great to be able to turn it off.