Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Evengy
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by Evengy » Mon May 16, 2011 12:20 pm

is there a daw where the people dont discuss about audio engine? NO! There are threads like this and MANY MANY MANY MANY²³²²³²³²³²³ more. everytime the same.... yeah i had the same impression... i have fl studio and tried ableton live as a second daw (i own both). but its only of its settings from the default template. fl studio have a limiter in master which makes the sound louder and i thought: fucking live sounds so thin. *lol*

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=144684 - Reason 4 and Ableton 8
http://www.idmforums.com/showthread.php?t=19836 - Ableton Live's sound quality
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/rap-hip- ... sound.html - Reason 4 sound quality
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=216791 - Ableton Live sound quality
http://community.sonikmatter.com/forums ... vs-cubase/
http://cubase.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=51570 - Cubase Mixdown/Sound Quality
http://www.futureproducers.com/forums/s ... p?t=234617 - Sound Quality: Cubase vs. FL Studio
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=298661 - Live vs Logic
http://www.djforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2165684
http://duc.digidesign.com/showthread.php?t=276031 - Reaper vs Pro Tools
http://duc.digidesign.com/showthread.php?t=270375 - Pro Tools vs ROW and PDC.
http://duc.digidesign.com/showthread.php?t=262911 - Protools vs ROW etc
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=296707 - FL Studio vs MuLabs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-cqYeiOpP8 - Tutor defends the quality of audio in Ableton Live
http://www.futureproducers.com/forums/s ... p?t=347472 - Ableton Live
http://www.cubase.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=110626 - ProTools is cleaner than Cubase
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=267723 - Cubase is cleaner than Ableton Live
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3989 - Interesting to see Apples answer to 64 bit advantage...no mention of audio quality (thank goodness).

SOURCE: FL Studio Forum - http://forum.image-line.com/viewtopic.p ... 429#390429

And here is a very interesting thread about The FL Studio 'Audio Engine' & DAW wars: http://forum.image-line.com/viewtopic.php?t=45272 (i can post it if you can´t read it complete)
Paul Frindle - Digital Truth's and Myth's: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-co ... -myth.html
Audio Myth Workshop ~ 1 hour: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wj ... r_embedded

stop that shit and make more music!

Poster
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by Poster » Mon May 16, 2011 1:16 pm

http://www.minzmusic.net/blog/archive/2009/02/11/ableton-live-summing-bus wrote:then there's peer pressure. if you follow some of the discussions, you'll quickly discover that among real professionals™ it's quite common to consider live a toy, not suited for real professional work™. if you want to be one of the boys, you'd better hear that live indeed sounds bad. and have some revealing personal experience to back it up. and if you don't have that, any hearsay will do.
this..

esky
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by esky » Mon May 16, 2011 1:37 pm

stop that shit and make more music!
Good statement... :!:

3phase
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by 3phase » Mon May 16, 2011 4:10 pm

abletontrainer.com wrote:
3phase wrote:
i dont see a test valid that works with virtual sample instruments.. that what is eaten away in lives mixing process are details in the room information of the tracks.. therefor with sampleinstruments that dont hold such information there cant get anything lost.

Such a test with a classical multritrack recording of a string quarted for example .. or a jazz combo would be more valid..

..
eh??? if anything, just audio is completely pointless.... no matter what paranoid delusions you are on, pure audio recordings is the one thing that wont show any difference, even in null tests, if everything is at exactly the same level and there is no warping/FX/Automation.

The only things that are in any way likely to affect the quality between them is PDC and automation.

pan laws as well if they are not considered in the test, but in reality just comparing simple audio files is not difficult and if they are properly compared they are not going to be any different, and I look forward to you proving otherwise.

again..you have to test what happens in the mix..as long the brown henke dither dont kicks in for whatever unknown reasons ableton live is well able to playback a single audiofile without destroing it.

just the interesting question how to avoid unwanted samplerate conversion. Using the most actual version is actually not a good idea becasue L.822 n my machine is worse than 8.21 ,,what a great update.
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

mr.ergonomics
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by mr.ergonomics » Mon May 16, 2011 5:38 pm

3phase I know this is a retorical question.... but have you checked that you really only use samples/audio with the same samplerate as your project?

I also like it more that you can import audio with another sampling rate without resampling in cubase for example, but it was never a big deal for me.

jonahhh
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by jonahhh » Mon May 16, 2011 8:00 pm

nonsense.
Exactly. Anyone that believes this should be required to make it known in their signature, so that anything else they say regarding audio can be disregarded. The layout/setup/functions of a program can/will cause you to make different mixing decisions, heck even colors matter, but given identical parameters they null.

As was already stated the file sizes aren't even close. Obvious user error. Bottom line, if you can't make good music with one of the many, many good programs out there it's your own fault.

3phase
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by 3phase » Mon May 16, 2011 8:43 pm

jonahhh wrote:
nonsense.
Exactly. Anyone that believes this should be required to make it known in their signature, so that anything else they say regarding audio can be disregarded. The layout/setup/functions of a program can/will cause you to make different mixing decisions, heck even colors matter, but given identical parameters they null.

As was already stated the file sizes aren't even close. Obvious user error. Bottom line, if you can't make good music with one of the many, many good programs out there it's your own fault.
another nonsense bla bla.. with guys like you in leading positions we still would live in caves..
ableton live.the caveman daw.. It can be operated totally stoned
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

Palmer Eldritch
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by Palmer Eldritch » Mon May 16, 2011 11:55 pm

3phase wrote:
Palmer Eldritch wrote:[
The null test shows the absolute difference between two sound events in the digital domain. This is simple math, +1 + -1 is Zero in every universe I know. With Lives Spectrum Analyzer you can see differences down to around -179 dB. (the last two bits of 32 bits).
that also indicates that you done your null test in life itself..

in science that is actually a false test when you use the test objekt to measure the results.. because an error might cancel itself out...
Why did I have expected this answer? :wink:

To be more precise: played the mix in Live (phase inverted) while playing the rendered file with the quicktime player. Rerouted the output of my MIO via FW_loopback to another track in Live with lives spectrum analyzer inserted. Tweaked the delay of the mix group until it cancel completely (nothing to hear - and nothing to see in the spectrum analyzer. Also nothing to see at the meters of my MIO.
And, by the way, the rendered track sounds exactly like the mixed tracks directly out of live.
If you have the feeling that there is a difference between rendered files in comparison to hear the mixes in realtime out of live then maybe some vst´s or au´s are involved? For example some voxengo plugs have a preference where you can say that they are using oversampling only when rendering.

cheers, palmer
Live 8_3_4 + 4b7_32+64 -Suite- Max4Live 5_1_9 _ core2DuoMacBook 2*2,16 Ghz + external FW HD _ OSX 10.6.8 _ 3G RAM _ M.H. MIO 2882 + 5.4d208 Driver _ Faderfox LV1 _ Akai MPK25 _ Logitec wheel mouse _______ PeacE will be the SOLution of LIVE

3phase
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by 3phase » Tue May 17, 2011 12:22 am

Palmer Eldritch wrote:
3phase wrote:
Palmer Eldritch wrote:[
The null test shows the absolute difference between two sound events in the digital domain. This is simple math, +1 + -1 is Zero in every universe I know. With Lives Spectrum Analyzer you can see differences down to around -179 dB. (the last two bits of 32 bits).
that also indicates that you done your null test in life itself..

in science that is actually a false test when you use the test objekt to measure the results.. because an error might cancel itself out...
Why did I have expected this answer? :wink:

To be more precise: played the mix in Live (phase inverted) while playing the rendered file with the quicktime player. Rerouted the output of my MIO via FW_loopback to another track in Live with lives spectrum analyzer inserted. Tweaked the delay of the mix group until it cancel completely (nothing to hear - and nothing to see in the spectrum analyzer. Also nothing to see at the meters of my MIO.
And, by the way, the rendered track sounds exactly like the mixed tracks directly out of live.
If you have the feeling that there is a difference between rendered files in comparison to hear the mixes in realtime out of live then maybe some vst´s or au´s are involved? For example some voxengo plugs have a preference where you can say that they are using oversampling only when rendering.

cheers, palmer

i never used lives rendering since 2002 because it screwed too many tracks... good to know that it can render now but i dont have outboard here that costs over 100 euro electricity each month to dont use that..

i just questions lives mix quality because it dont sounds as good as an digital yamaha dmc 1000 desk for example..or logic or cubase or the harrison mixbus..but the last one is an fx allready... that are the few alternatives i ve heard in the last month..

regarding your null test i would say its valid for thos special case.. but its not valid when you try to prrove the general mix quality of a daw aslong you dont manage that two mixes cancel out completly.. and as far i know nobody has achived that yet because there are indeed differeces..

if theese differeces are related to more dithering stages , delay compensations , zippery noises unwanted samplerate conversions i dont know.. just that tehy are there..
other wise the different daw´s would sound the same... pretty easy..isnt it?

the better or worse is the debateable point here..
At least theoretical..As it looks the fractions have made up their mind allready..
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

Palmer Eldritch
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by Palmer Eldritch » Tue May 17, 2011 12:58 am

esky wrote:
stop that shit and make more music!
Good statement... :!:
+1
Live 8_3_4 + 4b7_32+64 -Suite- Max4Live 5_1_9 _ core2DuoMacBook 2*2,16 Ghz + external FW HD _ OSX 10.6.8 _ 3G RAM _ M.H. MIO 2882 + 5.4d208 Driver _ Faderfox LV1 _ Akai MPK25 _ Logitec wheel mouse _______ PeacE will be the SOLution of LIVE

simpli.cissimus
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by simpli.cissimus » Tue May 17, 2011 2:08 am

SO in all points the DAW's are at same quality... :roll:
, but my demands for a DAW are to be stable and handle VST instruments and effects. :!:

Live is good with it's native stuff, but sucks totally if you use VST's ! :idea: :idea: :idea:

I tried Studio One with the same amount of VSTi and VST-effects, just to
be blown away from the performance and stability STudio One shows.

It uses 50% less CPU and is rock stable. 8O 8O 8O
I've added many VST's to really see what's going on... :twisted:
But I was able to work for hours at higher CPU(still half of Live's)
and did all kind of weird things to see Studio One crashing.

Still had no crash..., and I am not used to this situation anymore... :? :? :?

But good to know that the sound quality is still at the same level...
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

3phase
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by 3phase » Tue May 17, 2011 3:39 am

I just tested the instrument plugs i bought lately in logic..
the Audiorealism ABl and d16 drumazon...


is it possible that we have really buggy behaviour of L8 here? because they sound better aswell with logic.. ..ups.. and live just crashed on the try to start it..

never mind.. hard to settle with logic again after such a long time.. the whole night setup work :-/... but soundwise that is no question...

strange.. i cant really expect you guys to have so bad ears.. .. its easy said that one better should do music when you have to deal with bug problems all the rime since 2 years..

i switch to logic now..cant afford another year without release
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

Poster
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by Poster » Tue May 17, 2011 7:24 am

3phase wrote:i switch to logic now..
finally..

Evengy
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by Evengy » Tue May 17, 2011 11:27 am

3phase wrote:
i switch to logic now..cant afford another year without release
gl & hf with audio engine threads in logic forum ;-) you have G.A.S. and gives your daw the fault that you dont release songs....
the weakest thing in producing songs is the human who sit in front of the pc =D

i dont have bad ears, i hear differences too but its because of the default settings.

3phase
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by 3phase » Tue May 17, 2011 11:41 am

Evengy wrote:
3phase wrote:
i switch to logic now..cant afford another year without release
gl & hf with audio engine threads in logic forum ;-) you have G.A.S. and gives your daw the fault that you dont release songs....
the weakest thing in producing songs is the human who sit in front of the pc =D

i dont have bad ears, i hear differences too but its because of the default settings.
what are you taking about? the weakest thing in my studio is defently ableton live..
i am able to crash it on a daily base...

and that it sounds not as good as logic or others is too dominant to hear in my studio..
Probably my speaker setup is not good enough to get that the ableton sound is the better one while this more transparent 3 dimensonal logic sound is in reality phase fluctuations and thd.

because it cant be what cant be.. bugs in the audio engine are impossible.. ableton only creates bugs in minor functions... beside ..the sound issues are not crashing the program..so its a feature
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

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