Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Forge.
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by Forge. » Fri May 20, 2011 11:14 am

fx23 wrote:@ableton trainer

This was just an exemple. Please note im not trying to automate the eq itself, but devices placed after it. There are tons of useful vst that have a non negligeable latency. Plus even if they are small latency, consider all latencies are added together among all the chain at the end. Lot of live stuff plugs that need to fill a buffer ( slice manipulation, reversor ect) like ie suppa trigga or glitch got latency. The other thing is midi clocked devices like ie camel space wont receive correct timing infos after a vst latency. In some kind of music its not hearable. But in my case ( psytrance) a 3ms, even 1ms offset is clearly audible and producing untight results.
I can assure ya im often getting problems, even in fairly descent uses scenarios, as well as lot of friends around me.
Of course in a live use its not recommended to use high latency vsts anyway. But all i say is for a non- realtime use. Even if you bounce problem is there.
I understand it was just an example, but still the point stands. If it is affecting devices following it then it might be better to make it so that it is not processing in real time and and remove it from the chain

if you bounce then the problem doesn't need to be there because there is then a very tangible amount of delay you can see in the waveform and move it over

It's not that I am saying this should never be fixed, but I can see that when fitting into the live/real-time paradigm then there would be difficulties, and I am of the view that "real-time" should always remain Ableton's highest priority.

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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by 3phase » Fri May 20, 2011 11:16 am

H20nly wrote:
time to start working on that Live version 1 emulator VST before Image Line does.

should we code a TDM version???
just bring back the old low quality sr conversion.. have the new hq as standard without a checkbox.. and a new high quality one that needs more latency and cpu but does it really nicely..
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by Palmer Eldritch » Fri May 20, 2011 11:16 am

mr.ergonomics wrote:
broc wrote:And in particular, all M4L effect devices (midi and audio) have substantial latency, proportional to the audio buffer size.
would be happy if you could explain it a bit more detailed to get it right. so using a max4live (midi or audio) patch in a track adds a latency in size of the audio buffer??
Yes, also In 8_2_2
Live 8_3_4 + 4b7_32+64 -Suite- Max4Live 5_1_9 _ core2DuoMacBook 2*2,16 Ghz + external FW HD _ OSX 10.6.8 _ 3G RAM _ M.H. MIO 2882 + 5.4d208 Driver _ Faderfox LV1 _ Akai MPK25 _ Logitec wheel mouse _______ PeacE will be the SOLution of LIVE

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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by Forge. » Fri May 20, 2011 11:21 am

3phase wrote:.... us fanboys somehow decive ourself ......
8O

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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by 3phase » Fri May 20, 2011 11:26 am

abletontrainer.com wrote:
3phase wrote:.... us fanboys somehow decive ourself ......
8O
sure..to go thru so much suffering and motivation damage thru the L8 debacle and and arrogant ableton support cant be explained in any other way..
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by Forge. » Fri May 20, 2011 11:53 am

3phase wrote:
abletontrainer.com wrote:
3phase wrote:.... us fanboys somehow decive ourself ......
8O
sure..to go thru so much suffering and motivation damage thru the L8 debacle and and arrogant ableton support cant be explained in any other way..
but since when are you one of US?

so all this time "fanboi" included you? :D

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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by 3phase » Fri May 20, 2011 11:58 am

abletontrainer.com wrote:

so all this time "fanboi" included you? :D

sure.. but i called the other guys stupid fanboys


however.. every ableton user must be stupid to a certain degree..
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by Khazul » Fri May 20, 2011 12:35 pm

@3phase - OK - you can perceive some differences while working with Logic and Live. Can you reproduce these audiable differences when you do an appropriate quality non-real time render or are they only receivable when working in the da and not after a bounce from each is played back on the same playback software (say bounced aiff played via itunes or something else that isnt either daw?).

Just trying to work out where the difference lies as what you descibe sound more like the effect of use a good low jitter audio interface with one daw and an audio interface with poor jitter in another - evidently not the case as you use an RME FF400 and (AFAIK) a DAW cant normally have any impact at all on audio interface jitter. If a DAW gets its timing wrong - it misses a buffer fill and thats a really obvious glitch. Same with data over firewire/usb etc - this either works or it doesnt - no degradation. BTW - I assume you are running the FF400 from its internal clock and that no external clock source (ie ext clock or any other digital input) is connected to it that could be impacted by the settings of another DAW or Live? Just checking to make sure there is nothing external and variable that can possibly afffect what you perceive between the DAWs.

Other causes of what you describe might be SRC, bad oversampling somewhere etc (if we otherwise assume the use of identical plugins with identical setttings and identical resulting timings, equivalent levels and paaniing accounting for the pan law and any gain differences etc).

Try switching the strict timing option on in live and see if that helps (see the thread about it which I think you might have missed and for you may be worth a read).

If you are absolutely sure of a difference and the difference is in a render then you should post/submit to ableton as finally you will have somethig for people to analyse. If its only present when working and you can be 100% sure of no other possible causes then capturing that is going to be hard unless you happen to have another reasonable quality audio interfaces so you can capture via external analog loop (by all meanns try a digital loop, but you might not get a difference).

If you can hear it and its real - then one way or another it *will* be capturable with the appropriate technique that capatures exactly what you hear without the capture being influenced by either the DAW you are using nor its audio interface.
Nothing to see here - move along!

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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by Forge. » Fri May 20, 2011 12:36 pm

3phase wrote: .. every ableton user must be stupid to a certain degree..
8O

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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by Sepp Ultura » Fri May 20, 2011 12:50 pm

3phase wrote:however.. every ableton user must be stupid to a certain degree..
So you are! Sorry, this is just applying pure Logic (if you excuse the pun).

Peace :roll:
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by 3phase » Fri May 20, 2011 12:56 pm

Khazul wrote:@3phase - OK - you can perceive some differences while working with Logic and Live. Can you reproduce these audiable differences when you do an appropriate quality non-real time render or are they only receivable when working in the da and not after a bounce from each is played back on the same playback software (say bounced aiff played via itunes or something else that isnt either daw?).

Just trying to work out where the difference lies as what you descibe sound more like the effect of use a good low jitter audio interface with one daw and an audio interface with poor jitter in another - evidently not the case as you use an RME FF400 and (AFAIK) a DAW cant normally have any impact at all on audio interface jitter. If a DAW gets its timing wrong - it misses a buffer fill and thats a really obvious glitch. Same with data over firewire/usb etc - this either works or it doesnt - no degradation. BTW - I assume you are running the FF400 from its internal clock and that no external clock source (ie ext clock or any other digital input) is connected to it that could be impacted by the settings of another DAW or Live? Just checking to make sure there is nothing external and variable that can possibly affect what you perceive between the DAWs.

Other causes of what you describe might be SRC, bad oversampling somewhere etc (if we otherwise assume the use of identical plugins with identical setttings and identical resulting timings, equivalent levels and paaniing accounting for the pan law and any gain differences etc).

Try switching the strict timing option on in live and see if that helps (see the thread about it which I think you might have missed and for you may be worth a read).

If you are absolutely sure of a difference and the difference is in a render then you should post/submit to ableton as finally you will have somethig for people to analyse. If its only present when working and you can be 100% sure of no other possible causes then capturing that is going to be hard unless you happen to have another reasonable quality audio interfaces so you can capture via external analog loop (by all meanns try a digital loop, but you might not get a difference).

If you can hear it and its real - then one way or another it *will* be capturable with the appropriate technique that capatures exactly what you hear without the capture being influenced by either the DAW you are using nor its audio interface.

its defently not worth to waste more time in that.. the difference was so clear that there is really nothing to proove... just trust your ears..

just one anektode.. met yetserday another producer guy in a berlin outdoor club.. told him that i finaly go logic again.. he: you produced in live? i, yes why? he..thought you are one of the guys that is into soundquality..

lets say like this..outside of this forum nobody really doubts that there are better sounding daws out there. Its really just that teh ableton user has learned to live with that because it otherwise would screw his workflow when questioning the sound all the time... and its not like that that others keep the real attraktion of an analog synth recording.. the material allways suffers as soon it enters the digital domain.. and with live it just suffers a bit more..

does that really make a difference? when you like to mix and having something like a soundstage where you place audio in you are defently better off with other daw..but they are all crap in relaition to a real mixing desk anyway... so in the end of the day it really dont matters so much..just sucks a bit..

but there are so many things that suck in ableton live..all the humming and buzzing..and sometimes it even crashes or dont loads its own option texts.. ..what is a little audio degeneration against that... besides

maybe its really just more pure because the digital audio is not treated or dithred to work with 24 bit converters and therefore from a digital standpoint its maybe really more pure..just dont sounds good when it meets the speakers.. whats just the nature of digital sound.

face it..all this latency bullshit..sound degenration..losses thru wordclock jitter or format comversions.. the placement of soundevents on the timeline..rather random when the sound engineer dont really works hard to make events appear exactly when they was played..

when it comes to really record the performance of brilliant musicans without altering that, all this digital audio stuff is somehow bullshit.. lightspeed resolution is much better... and the little noise.. pfff. it really dont hurts the music as much as bad timing...
Beside..ther is no noise on a studer with dolby sr.. is well below 90 db andtherfore in realty cleaner than many digital recordings with theire converter buzzle...

however.. back to the logic work... it defently is some fun to hear rhe recordings a bit fresher and place the best ones in logic projekts where its easier to find them again than in abletons new screwed L8 hide the audio files in a folder inside a folder inside a folder inside a folder tactics...
Last edited by 3phase on Fri May 20, 2011 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by 3phase » Fri May 20, 2011 12:57 pm

Sepp Ultura wrote:
3phase wrote:however.. every ableton user must be stupid to a certain degree..
So you are! Sorry, this is just applying pure Logic (if you excuse the pun).

Peace :roll:

sure..10 years inside the ableton trap qualify as pretty much seriously stupid
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Sepp Ultura
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by Sepp Ultura » Fri May 20, 2011 1:00 pm

Excuse me mister, but you sure have a tendency to contradict yourself.

About the contradiction-issue please consult this thread and your reply to my question:
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... 3#p1291943
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by 3phase » Fri May 20, 2011 1:02 pm

Sepp Ultura wrote:Excuse me mister, but you sure have a tendency to contradict yourself.

About the contradiction-issue please consult this thread and your reply to my question:
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... 3#p1291943

what are you talking about sepp? callig you names?
anyway..i am off the sun is waiting
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Sepp Ultura
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by Sepp Ultura » Fri May 20, 2011 1:06 pm

3phase wrote:
Sepp Ultura wrote:Excuse me mister, but you sure have a tendency to contradict yourself.

About the contradiction-issue please consult this thread and your reply to my question:
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... 3#p1291943

what are you talking about sepp? callig you names?
anyway..i am off the sun is waiting
I misunderstood the use of the word "stupid" in your last post. That's also why I edited it. I apologise.
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