Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Khazul
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by Khazul » Fri May 20, 2011 1:15 pm

3phase wrote:its defently not worth to waste more time in that.. the difference was so clear that there is really nothing to proove... just trust your ears..
I dont get it - you have spent hours and hours tellng people about it on here, yet you wont do anything to reproduce it in a way that would be accessable to others - particularly ableton?

Hell even if you dont share the end result - you might at least understand it better yourself and so work with/around it easier etc - understanding a problem with live has usually been the answer to getting around it, or even getting someone from ableton to indicate an interest in doing something about it eventually.

For eg - the whole PDC mess is at least on their radar now and only because some folks published how to reproduce it, explained it such that other could understand the impact etc and once realised what it caused in their own work screamed about it (ok, so alot of people scream anyway without having a clue wat they are screaming about).

Get the idea? Illustrate it and you might find you aint fighting a battle alone anymore or even have to fight it at all.
Nothing to see here - move along!

sporkles
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by sporkles » Fri May 20, 2011 3:51 pm

Khazul wrote: I dont get it - you have spent hours and hours tellng people about it on here, yet you wont do anything to reproduce it in a way that would be accessable to others
Er... Have you read ANY of his posts? That's his MO: make claim, disregard further investigation (properly reporting a bug) as a waste of time. It really doesn't matter if he's actually right or not, because once he's had enough people listen, his work is done.

ikeaboy
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by ikeaboy » Fri May 20, 2011 7:58 pm

abletontrainer.com wrote:
3phase wrote: .. every ableton user must be stupid to a certain degree..
8O
lol 3phase your a legend. (I'm not switching to logic though)

Palmer Eldritch
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by Palmer Eldritch » Fri May 20, 2011 11:13 pm

Hey 3Phase,

just curious. What did you think of the audio engine of Reaper - http://www.reaper.fm - in regard of playing tracks and simple summing them to the master bus in comparison to Live?

cheers, palmer
Live 8_3_4 + 4b7_32+64 -Suite- Max4Live 5_1_9 _ core2DuoMacBook 2*2,16 Ghz + external FW HD _ OSX 10.6.8 _ 3G RAM _ M.H. MIO 2882 + 5.4d208 Driver _ Faderfox LV1 _ Akai MPK25 _ Logitec wheel mouse _______ PeacE will be the SOLution of LIVE

3phase
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by 3phase » Sat May 21, 2011 12:40 pm

Khazul wrote:
3phase wrote:its defently not worth to waste more time in that.. the difference was so clear that there is really nothing to proove... just trust your ears..
I dont get it - you have spent hours and hours tellng people about it on here, yet you wont do anything to reproduce it in a way that would be accessable to others - particularly ableton?

Hell even if you dont share the end result - you might at least understand it better yourself and so work with/around it easier etc - understanding a problem with live has usually been the answer to getting around it, or even getting someone from ableton to indicate an interest in doing something about it eventually.

For eg - the whole PDC mess is at least on their radar now and only because some folks published how to reproduce it, explained it such that other could understand the impact etc and once realised what it caused in their own work screamed about it (ok, so alot of people scream anyway without having a clue wat they are screaming about).

Get the idea? Illustrate it and you might find you aint fighting a battle alone anymore or even have to fight it at all.

just try other daws yourself that is much quicker than me filing a "proove". when i came along an easy to compare situation while transfering projekts i might do..but.. is there really a point when so much people allredy belive in that? would just irritate people that are happy withit that still have the ressort to look up theese test by ableton trainers that state live to be more neutral to the sound as logic and protools....neutral..nice word to discribe the fx :lol:


lateny weardness is really a problem with ablton live...

In logic you do that by hand before any recording that is done from anther routing. so the external ofsets get compensated correctly..the rest ? seems to work better regarding plug ins..

with the midi side abletons midi has a higher precission.. logic is really a bit sloppy there... but stable..

In live the whole midi related delay compensation can get corupted during a session and that on a pretty regular base.. seemsa that L8.15 is more stable in that regard than L.821

And a few other midi weardmesses i came along when setting irt all up for logic as master now..


firtst a good thing.. the mtc started to work .. dont know since which version.. but logic via iac to live gives pretty ok now..only glitches the position on every 5 th start not on any single one anymore...havent checked wether the mtc offset bug is still there..
And the glitch that clips in session view needs to be retriggered after mtc start is of cause still there.. so..mtc sync only with arrangement view..

however we dont have a seperate midi offset handling in live for the note data..and that probaly also happens with the controler data..
in logic clock and note/controler data have a global offset dely..thats pretty rough.. good that live has exra delays for clocks.. and the cocks is the most precise part of abletons midi ..the notes jiter more.. a bit better than logic which takes the liberty to be as bad as it allways was since OS 7 times on the mac.. 1,5 ms jitter.. live <1 ms..

however.. midi outputis just vcompenstaed for plug in use.. as soon you drive an external keyboard midi is late.. so you need to offset the midi clip..which isnt really possible while running because ther are no midi evet delays in live.. what a mes..

you need to resort to track delays that mess with the latency compensation cheme.. and cause audio stauuter when adjusting while running.. and maybe even worse things like brown henke dither and the general latency screwed for the day phenomen,,

SO in my case you need to offset -3 ms to have the expander play exactly in time with the reffrence simpler pulse track...

BUT

now you record this 2 sources back into live via your sound card AD..

so simplaer audio out into audio in...

result.. good..

Now the midi expander that justplays in time with simpler ofer the same audio interface output..

recording... is 2 ms early...

CAn somebody explain me why that? maybe i am snowblind wright now..

<just can say.. in ideal an audio source you hear.. and bounced back A/D to live..
should just be place one like the other... what you hear is what you get would be really nice somehow...


actually i really dont see why the program telephatical knows that the one signal is generated internaly and send thru the output..while the other on is generated externaly and and send thru an input via direct monitoring. buth signals just arrive at analog inputs..and get converted.. that the one source is the soundcard itself shouldnt matter..or?

There seems to be something wrong here.. when i adjust for teh phenomen via the drver error correction all other bounce zenarios that was fine before get the 2 ms offset.. ..

other szenario where this problem cuts in is when you record a keyboard player with audio and midi simultaniously...the midi will be late than.. to play it back you will need to offset the playback again.. or move the note data along the timeline..

So in short..logic is handling this better.but screws that with its sloppiness..
Live has all the weardo and unstable parts but aims in theorie for better precision.. but is as usual not ready..while logic shows a zero development because thats all just the same logic problems one had 10 years ago..


howevere.. in the end of the days we need to be like real jazzers.. no overdubs... no problems

Andi ve no idea about reaper..just checked the harrison mixbus lately and it sounds nice...
but that thing is doig defemntly more than just beeing transparent..sounds more transparent tha live thou.. graphical layout is great and really good for overdubs under software moitoring... but all the rest is still pretty young... but a very nice program..
with a little midi and more comfortable regiaon handling.. could be actually fun to work with.
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

Khazul
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by Khazul » Sun May 22, 2011 7:19 pm

3phase wrote: just try other daws yourself that is much quicker than me filing a "proove".
I use Cubase 6 and Logic 9 as well and everytime I have thought there was noticeable a difference (like a far more immersive sound field, clearer and less abrasive highs etc) when moving a project I didnt get the chance to actually investigate it at the time, and there could be loads of reasons that have nothing to do with the DAWs - ie entirely down to me.

Anytime I have actually moved stuff over specifically to look for a change - it wasnt there - at least not the kind of improved clarity etc. Finally, whenever I have later loaded the original project up in live while working on it in logic or cubase, I wasnt aware of a drastic difference going back the other way.

This leads me to conclude that a) its just me - something about me and/or what Ive done to project is sufficiently different (perhpas just head in non ideal spot at time even though I have a center line marked and have K system type metering and absolute reference levels marked etc) to explain it, or there is an intermittent bug in live that causes it to subtly goto hell just as sometimes happens with PDC and 3rd party plugins and/or messing with track delays.

So, if you happen to have an example that is absolutely 100% reproducable - it would save a lot of pissing about and if worthy of further investigation to under exactly what is going on, as I have yet to get the kind of huge difference I sometimes hear when I have set out to look for it. You might even find a certain plugin is always in use in Live at the time and you have been messing with track delays for eg.
Nothing to see here - move along!

zigzag
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by zigzag » Tue May 24, 2011 12:27 pm

I am missing some replies that were posted here since yesterday. There was some interesting discussion going on.

What happened? Ableton moderators erased it?

Can you please respond?

Khazul
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by Khazul » Tue May 24, 2011 1:02 pm

Yeh I wondered about that too. Thought 3phase had changed his mind and deleted his reply. Cant see why from half reading it on my iphone.
Nothing to see here - move along!

Tarekith
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by Tarekith » Tue May 24, 2011 2:02 pm

All of 3phase2's posts were deleted.

dancerchris
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Re: Audio Engine Test - Live Versus Pro Tools Versus Logic

Post by dancerchris » Tue May 24, 2011 2:05 pm

If I remember correctly it was user 3phase2 that posted the missing links...... :roll:
Live 8.4.2 / Win 8 Pro 64 bit / Core 2 Quad 2.66 GHZ / 8 Gb ram
Presonus Firepod / Axiom 49 / PadKontrol
Various guitars, keyboards, sax and friends

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