Tempo Sync as Slave issue

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
3phase
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Re: Tempo Sync as Slave issue

Post by 3phase » Mon May 16, 2011 9:29 pm

Tone Deft wrote:the time setting will definitely have to change. mine is -11ms IIRC.

to get mine setup I recorded Live's metronome into the MPC, chopped it up and set the MPC to have the same metronome sounds. then I hit sync and changed that setting until they flanged.


3phase, you'll help, you're the biggest fanboi here!

you are aware that flanging is not a sign of a tight sync?
Probably not..its a sign of an untight sync.. because the flanging you hear is the speed modulation = the wobble..
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Tone Deft
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Re: Tempo Sync as Slave issue

Post by Tone Deft » Mon May 16, 2011 9:43 pm

you're talking at the sample base level, so 1/48kHz = ~21uS, 96kHz is half that, 192 is 1/4 that. midi is 33kBaud IIRC, a period of 30uS. with midi it's theoretically impossible to get perfect sync at 48kHz without doing a lot of averaging and operations that would slow down the machine's reaction time. yet people have been using midi sync for decades.

with true sync I could invert one device's metronome sounds and have them cancel. or not cancel them but have the combined metronome sounds double in volume.

there's a huge difference between the 2-3bpm wiggles that the OP is seeing, the uSecond sync I'm talking about. that would be an incredible improvement, very very noticeable. that you're referring to is much more subtle and overkill for most users. it's a sexy idea but I'm not worried about. a Pro like you goes nuts about it. word clock is a more suitable route to take.
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3phase
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Re: Tempo Sync as Slave issue

Post by 3phase » Mon May 16, 2011 9:54 pm

Tone Deft wrote:you're talking at the sample base level, so 1/48kHz = ~21uS, 96kHz is half that, 192 is 1/4 that. midi is 33kBaud IIRC, a period of 30uS. with midi it's theoretically impossible to get perfect sync at 48kHz without doing a lot of averaging and operations that would slow down the machine's reaction time. yet people have been using midi sync for decades.

with true sync I could invert one device's metronome sounds and have them cancel. or not cancel them but have the combined metronome sounds double in volume.

there's a huge difference between the 2-3bpm wiggles that the OP is seeing, the uSecond sync I'm talking about. that would be an incredible improvement, very very noticeable. that you're referring to is much more subtle and overkill for most users. it's a sexy idea but I'm not worried about. a Pro like you goes nuts about it. word clock is a more suitable route to take.

forget it toni.. such a beat wobble we have in live is doing several ms of unacuarcy..
I studi clock sync problems since they started to get problematic from the mid 90´s and had discussions with many developers also some that do the real sync stuff for tv stations incl.
I even influenced some products that try to deal with the issue..
On an apple you should get a stable tempo reading..reaktor can do it and fire samples precisly.. you can patch an ableton alike mini app in reaktor that is just running tight on an external midi clock..
so when i can do it within reaktor it must be possible for a machine code written app aswell... YOu just need to have that as a goal on your agenda.. Roger linn was able to do it perfectly on the old mpc´s..the later akai developers wasnt anymore.. Either because they was unableton or precission was just not on theire agenda anymore.
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Tone Deft
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Re: Tempo Sync as Slave issue

Post by Tone Deft » Mon May 16, 2011 9:56 pm

I dig. once you start to pay attention you notice how poorly many things are out of sync, it's really annoying. sometimes I wish I didn't know.

for me I just transfer audio beats from the MPC into Live.
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3phase
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Re: Tempo Sync as Slave issue

Post by 3phase » Mon May 16, 2011 10:01 pm

Tone Deft wrote:I dig. once you start to pay attention you notice how poorly many things are out of sync, it's really annoying. sometimes I wish I didn't know.

for me I just transfer audio beats from the MPC into Live.

even in hardware only times ther was machines with issues..the 909 for example.. but actually in such crude ways that it really can be seen as a groove trick ..

however the main daw that gives the clock master in the studio should be able to handle all sync szenarios perfectly and act as a tool that can compensate shortcommings of other machines..

partiel ableton has the best implementation in this regard of all daws..but again only implemeted the half way.. when it would have been trhufully developed in the style we see in the midi pref window, slave syncing or timecode operation wouldnt be any unsolvable issues...
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Re: Tempo Sync as Slave issue

Post by Tone Deft » Mon May 16, 2011 10:06 pm

the REAL problem, the bigger problem is that it seems that some users can't even get them to sync loosely. with the OP, if he can't fix his 2-3 bpm wobbles, that's messed up.
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Khazul
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Re: Tempo Sync as Slave issue

Post by Khazul » Mon May 16, 2011 10:06 pm

Tone Deft wrote:you're talking at the sample base level, so 1/48kHz = ~21uS, 96kHz is half that, 192 is 1/4 that. midi is 33kBaud IIRC, a period of 30uS. with midi it's theoretically impossible to get perfect sync at 48kHz without doing a lot of averaging and operations that would slow down the machine's reaction time. yet people have been using midi sync for decades.

with true sync I could invert one device's metronome sounds and have them cancel. or not cancel them but have the combined metronome sounds double in volume.

there's a huge difference between the 2-3bpm wiggles that the OP is seeing, the uSecond sync I'm talking about. that would be an incredible improvement, very very noticeable. that you're referring to is much more subtle and overkill for most users. it's a sexy idea but I'm not worried about. a Pro like you goes nuts about it. word clock is a more suitable route to take.
A good sync method that locks relatively quickly and maintains very tight sync over jittters is not hard to write - if the programmer has a clue about flywheel sync algorythms. Sadly its one of these things that one the surface seems really easy, so never get given much thought when is implemented.

Actually ableton even struggles to maintain sync from a virtual midi port!

Just curious - how many people here have worked with old (pre computerised) video edit systems slaved to midi timecode? That used to work fine with decent sync gear. There is no excuse at all in this agge why modern software on a modern computer cant do at least as good.
Nothing to see here - move along!

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