SOUND ENGINE BUGS ???

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
Evengy
Posts: 454
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:31 am

Re: SOUND ENGINE BUGS ???

Post by Evengy » Wed May 25, 2011 8:34 am

but its the same discussion with EVERY daw in every forum. where does it come from? are there only daw´s with a bad sound engine or what? =D is it g.a.s. where you guys think with another daw you produce better than now? is it the psychological thing "i wanna have that what i dont have atm"? i really dont unterstand....

wrongun
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:56 am
Location: uk

Re: SOUND ENGINE BUGS ???

Post by wrongun » Wed May 25, 2011 9:38 am

There is definately a problem with pdc at the moment. Im constantly having to adjust the timings to keep the groove as I add more plugins. It gets to the point where its a total pain in the arse and I give up.
I love Live, its an amazing program with a fantastic work flow. I just want it to work. I can't believe people are not able to see/hear this, it really is that obvious to me. Which leads me to think maybe it is hardware related but I can't see how.
Oh well, Im gonna send some examples off to support and see what they say.

Khazul
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Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Reading, UK

Re: SOUND ENGINE BUGS ???

Post by Khazul » Wed May 25, 2011 9:52 am

Jesus Christ wrote:
Khazul wrote:See reply I posted to slutz.
how's about re-posting it here so like, y'know, other interested parties can, like, read it n stuff.
The essential bit was
This bounce sound to me like the effect of trying to cancel a bounce with auto-generated fades with a track with track that had no fades on it.

Check preferences and make sure you don't have auto fades on.
Re rest of this thread:

When Live behaves I have absolutely no issues with general sound engine quality. Coming from an old hardware world to me it just cold and clinical because it really doesnt do anything to the sound if you have your preferences (bit depth, auto fades, default warp mode) set right, have decent sound sources and monitors, dont use warping at all and especially not accidentally, and have all you audio already at the right sample rate, set the strict delay compensation option in options.txt and dont use any plugins that could possibly upset its timing (IK multimedia among others stuff for some reason), and dont rely upon PDC in situations where it cant deliver and sacrifice a chicken or two.

The problems is when one of the above doesnt apply, then thing can go to hell either very subtly or more obviously in the form of it crashing. Now even before something actually goes wrong ie a bug) the average user has to fix a bunch of stupidly set defaults in order that basic functions work cleanly to a leave that is at least on par with an average other DAW.

I consider myself one of the lucky ones with years of studio experience as well as loads of relevent software and hardware development experience - ie a DAW and production pretty much has no mysteries for me, but hell even I get tripped up by the above mine field on a fresh install - forgot to change some setting or other after installing, so I fully expect average users without that kind of background to get thoroughly screwed and frustrated over by such things.

AFAICT 3phase (behind most of the live is T.F.BUNDY rants) knows studios and gear, but he isnt otherwise a technology techy, so half of his problems are definitely settings and usage related, however there are some very specific thing that he describes and that other often describe that are perfectly in line with occasional subtle audio weirdness that I come across which are not consistently reproducible and therefore to me mind possibly an intermittent bug.

Something for the people who say live is perfect has great workflow etc, yes - user interaction and ease and speed of editing are exactly why I use it. I cant even work at a fraction of the speed in cubase or logic that I can in live when it comes to getting ideas down and basic edits, routing, shuffling plugins around etc.

To be fair to the other DAWs, once I past that stage and not fiddling any more, just purely mixing, then live is a fail compared to the speed and ease with which I can work in logic or cubase - they simply have better interfaces for conventional linear mixing. At least logic lets me drag stuff around to some extent for reordering, but some things I do with racks all the time are a complete pain in the arse to do in another DAW for eg - an analytical mastering rack where each processing plugin is in a dual chain rack with a through phase invert on the second chain so I can cancel the original sound and just hear the difference that a plugin makes to the audio. In logic I have to use Kore for that or a heap of busses, in cubase its even more messy - either way it a real pain for something that has become part of my production process.

The problem I have with Live is Im not sure if I can trust it to be clean and stay clean when I want it to be. I dont trust its timing stability to the point of having to work out ways of quickly testing it hasnt gone wrong (creating mix reference bounces of a few bars that I can refer to later if I think its timing has gone wrong again) before I waste hours trying to understand why I think something has gone wrong and not sure if its me or Live thats fucked it all up. However when it all works, it all works really well, especiall if you are aware of all the litle issues and can work around them/avoid them - but how many people do?

I don't believe live is fundamentally fucked at all - I just think its buggy way beyond the obvious crashes which is really fucking annoying for an otherwise excellent tool that has no real alternative for its style of workflow.
Nothing to see here - move along!

Khazul
Posts: 3185
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Reading, UK

Re: SOUND ENGINE BUGS ???

Post by Khazul » Wed May 25, 2011 9:56 am

wrongun wrote:There is definately a problem with pdc at the moment. Im constantly having to adjust the timings to keep the groove as I add more plugins. It gets to the point where its a total pain in the arse and I give up.
I love Live, its an amazing program with a fantastic work flow. I just want it to work. I can't believe people are not able to see/hear this, it really is that obvious to me. Which leads me to think maybe it is hardware related but I can't see how.
Oh well, Im gonna send some examples off to support and see what they say.
Yes - you have nailed it - my #1 annoyance with live. What I dont get is why its intermittent, most the time its fine, then suddenly it all just fails badly especially with certain plugins, maybe due to adjusting track delays or something - not sure what triggers it. Reloading the project usually clears it, or switching on strict delay compensation seems to have stopped it as well.
Nothing to see here - move along!

ollyb303
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Location: Bristol, UK
Contact:

Re: SOUND ENGINE BUGS ???

Post by ollyb303 » Wed May 25, 2011 10:21 am

fisto wrote:@ the guys defending Live and not worrying about the sound-engine: be happy but please let those who have problems talk about it. Seems to me that you guys are either deaf or you make music where the soundquality is not important at all.

Those who complain love Live and would like to actually finish songs in Live too, not only do the layout there. But at the current moment it is not possible as PDC will make your tune sound muddy the longer you work on it.
So please noobs, nobody asked you. You're free to be happy with Live while others will be complaining till Live works as it should, ok?
Try climbing out from up your own arse mate.
.:O:B:1:.
ob1techno.com

henke
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:36 am

Re: SOUND ENGINE BUGS ???

Post by henke » Wed May 25, 2011 10:40 am

The vast majority of problems reported here again and again are more related to perception and false information. There is no indicator that the PDC suddenly all became wrong in Live 8. If there are problems, they most likely have been in since the introduction of the PDC. So how comes that it is suddenly impossible to work with it and it was not impossible or a problem before some of you started stating it is so bad?

I am sure there are bigs which can certainly have an effect on either perceived or real sound quality. But just globally blaming Live for shitty sound will not help addressing any potential issue, it just confuses people who could else wise be happy with what they have. People made amazing music in the times of hardware MIDI where every single note had a random latency of 1ms due to the midi protocol and each synth added approx. 10ms processing latency to distribute the MIDI data to its internal voices. That's why samples of the 808 never worked on hardware samplers with MIDI sequencers.

If you guys want Live to become better, there is a very simple thing you can do:
Find cases that can be reproduced and report those cases here or send a mail to support@ableton.com Then there is a chance that they can be fixed quickly.

How comes that all those of you who have golden ears never stated things like:
"Erosion introduces a latency of 5ms which is not compensated." This is in fact true, it is 100% reproduceable and on the list of things to change.

I find the tone and attitude of some of you here quite shocking these days. This could be a place of serious, polite discussions, this could be a place where people exchange ideas etc. but instead everytime you look at it there is another thread started by the same usual people who repeat the same things again and again. And if this becomes a place where posts are going to be deleted, this will not be the case because someone pointed to a flaw in Live but because of ongoing insults of other forum members, and the people working at Ableton. If you want Live to become better, flame wars are not the right attitude.

Robert


btw: if you are pro you learned how to work with the flaws of your equipment since all your tools have flaws. Muddy sound due to PDC??? You need to explain me this. What is "muddy" for you and how does it relate to which amount of delay from where exactly? Unless you can explain this to me, I have a hard time taking you serious. Digital audio is complex, but it follows quite straight concepts.
Last edited by henke on Tue May 31, 2011 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

fisto
Posts: 354
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:06 pm

Re: SOUND ENGINE BUGS ???

Post by fisto » Wed May 25, 2011 11:53 am

henke wrote:How comes that all those of you who have golden ears never stated things like:
"Erosion introduces a latency of 5ms which is not compensated."
i don't use erosion or any other Live effects in the studio

henke wrote:btw: if you are pro you learned how to work with the flaws of your equipment since all your tools have flaws. Muddy sound due to PDC??? You need to explain me this. What is "muddy" for you and how does it relate to which amount of delay from where exactly? Unless you can explain this to me, I have a hard time taking you serious. Digital audio is complex, but it follows quite straight concepts.
we had a really long and technical thread some time ago about PDC here. I don't know if it's exactly PDC but the more tracks and FX i put into a session the muddier (more unclear) the sound becomes (and NO: I'm not just throwing in stuff - i do this conscioussly). I don't want to argue about my perception of soundquality. I noticed this long before the talk about PDC started and switched to mixing in Reaper. So as soon as the layout is made (usually not more than 15 tracks and basic effects and no chains) I move out of Live.

AND: when I add a lot of FX in Reaper it does not get muddier with time. The FX just do what they should do. I don't have any proof. I simply hear it and believe me it's not a made opinion. I came to the conclusion while in the midst of my "oh man Live is so awesome"-phase.

simpli.cissimus
Posts: 518
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 5:33 pm

Re: SOUND ENGINE BUGS ???

Post by simpli.cissimus » Wed May 25, 2011 12:09 pm

fisto wrote:@ the guys defending Live and not worrying about the sound-engine: be happy but please let those who have problems talk about it. Seems to me that you guys are either deaf or you make music where the soundquality is not important at all.

Those who complain love Live and would like to actually finish songs in Live too, not only do the layout there. But at the current moment it is not possible as PDC will make your tune sound muddy the longer you work on it.
So please noobs, nobody asked you. You're free to be happy with Live while others will be complaining till Live works as it should, ok?
That's so true !!!
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

rcpunker
Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:36 pm

Re: SOUND ENGINE BUGS ???

Post by rcpunker » Wed May 25, 2011 12:44 pm

henke wrote:The vast majority of problems reported here again and again are more related to perception and false information. There is no indicator that the PDC suddenly all became wrong in Live 8. If there are problems, they most likely have been in since the introduction of the PDC. So how comes that it is suddenly impossible to work with it and it was not impossible or a problem before some of you started stating it is so bad?

I am sure there are bigs which can certainly have an effect on either perceived or real sound quality. But just globally blaming Live for shitty sound will not help addressing any potential issue, it just confuses people who could else wise be happy with what they have. People made amazing music in the times of hardware MIDI where every single note had a random latency of 1ms due to the midi protocol and each synth added approx. 10ms processing latency to distribute the MIDI data to its internal voices. That's why samples of the 808 never worked on hardware samplers with MIDI sequencers.

If you guys want Live to become better, there is a very simple thing you can do:
Find cases that can be reproduced and report those cases here or send a mail to bugs@ableton.com Then there is a chance that they can be fixed quickly.

How comes that all those of you who have golden ears never stated things like:
"Erosion introduces a latency of 5ms which is not compensated." This is in fact true, it is 100% reproduceable and on the list of things to change.

I find the tone and attitude of some of you here quite shocking these days. This could be a place of serious, polite discussions, this could be a place where people exchange ideas etc. but instead everytime you look at it there is another thread started by the same usual people who repeat the same things again and again. And if this becomes a place where posts are going to be deleted, this will not be the case because someone pointed to a flaw in Live but because of ongoing insults of other forum members, and the people working at Ableton. If you want Live to become better, flame wars are not the right attitude.

Robert


btw: if you are pro you learned how to work with the flaws of your equipment since all your tools have flaws. Muddy sound due to PDC??? You need to explain me this. What is "muddy" for you and how does it relate to which amount of delay from where exactly? Unless you can explain this to me, I have a hard time taking you serious. Digital audio is complex, but it follows quite straight concepts.
^INFOMERCIAL

kb420
Posts: 2772
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:35 am
Location: Cydonia on the 4th Planet

Re: SOUND ENGINE BUGS ???

Post by kb420 » Wed May 25, 2011 12:50 pm

ollyb303 wrote:Try climbing out from up your own arse mate.

Wow! That really brought a lot to the table. Please do come back a grace us once more with your infinite wisdome!!! :?
"That which does not kill us makes us stronger..........."
-Friedrich Nietzsche-

mr.ergonomics
Posts: 919
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:12 am

Re: SOUND ENGINE BUGS ???

Post by mr.ergonomics » Wed May 25, 2011 1:24 pm

why does no one here reproduce the test and confirm it? seems strange to me that all people here start to rant and don't focus on a given question. I will try to reproduce it when I'm at home.

ps:
.. this "blind" defending from some people and the statement that sound quality doesn't matter isn't a reasonable way imho, but just create bad rumors is worse.

I failed to prove that live sound quality is worse. and I tried it when ever I "had" the feeling. The feeling was just wrong every time. I'm not defending here, I'm fine when someone can show it. that said... live as some PDC issues that should be corrected and are known to ableton (and to move things in perspective...last time I checked other daws had problems too under some conditions)
Last edited by mr.ergonomics on Wed May 25, 2011 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hermanus
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Location: Belgium

Re: SOUND ENGINE BUGS ???

Post by Hermanus » Wed May 25, 2011 1:42 pm

I don't understand.

2 pages of ranting and not answering to the question.
Even a simple question from new users can sometimes turned into a long debate.

rcpunker
Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:36 pm

Re: SOUND ENGINE BUGS ???

Post by rcpunker » Wed May 25, 2011 1:50 pm

Everyone overlooks it,but, graphic cards are the main problems in any software whethere it be a DAW,PHOTO EDITOR,VIDEO EDITOR, GAMING, etc. but, it's hardly addressed and will continue to bring up debates like this for many years to come. Look at all the upgrades everyone has made over the years. P4 to i5's, i7's,etc. mor RAM,etc. Yet, still issues.

Graphic cards my friends, dig in to it or we'll be stuck on these topics for a long time.

Jesus Christ
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:48 pm

Re: SOUND ENGINE BUGS ???

Post by Jesus Christ » Wed May 25, 2011 2:30 pm

henke wrote:There is no indicator that the PDC suddenly all became wrong in Live 8. If there are problems, they most likely have been in since the introduction of the PDC. So how comes that it is suddenly impossible to work with it and it was not impossible or a problem before some of you started stating it is so bad?


btw: if you are pro you learned how to work with the flaws of your equipment since all your tools have flaws. Muddy sound due to PDC??? You need to explain me this. What is "muddy" for you and how does it relate to which amount of delay from where exactly? Unless you can explain this to me, I have a hard time taking you serious. Digital audio is complex, but it follows quite straight concepts.
indicating to me that no PDC improvements have (yet?) been made in Live 9


it's also a bit of a fallacy to suggest that because users didn't immediately & specifically indicate PDC issues as soon as it was implemented, that it must be OK. Are you for real?
Users, and pros going on the record in the media, have been lamenting sound issues with LIVE for years. And when they did so on the forum they are/were usually called nutters and offered something along the lines of "1+1=2" as a counter argument. It took time to get official remarks/concessions on the automation engine, and it's effect on the audio output. and so too it probably took time for people to connect PDC issues with perceived audio quality.

fisto
Posts: 354
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:06 pm

Re: SOUND ENGINE BUGS ???

Post by fisto » Wed May 25, 2011 2:52 pm

Jesus Christ wrote:it's also a bit of a fallacy to suggest that because users didn't immediately & specifically indicate PDC issues as soon as it was implemented, that it must be OK. Are you for real?
Users, and pros going on the record in the media, have been lamenting sound issues with LIVE for years. And when they did so on the forum they are/were usually called nutters and offered something along the lines of "1+1=2" as a counter argument. It took time to get official remarks/concessions on the automation engine, and it's effect on the audio output. and so too it probably took time for people to connect PDC issues with perceived audio quality.
amen :!:

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