Plugin delay compensation. WTF?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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sporkles
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Plugin delay compensation. WTF?

Post by sporkles » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:49 pm

I've been skimming a lot of the recent discussions concerning - among other things - plugin delay compensation. I've never really given it much thought, but as I was having timing problems with a tempo-synced VST effect, I just wanted to see what happened if I turned PDC off. (I realised that I'd already read in the manual that this kind of effect actually can't be compensated when there's another VST in front of it in the chain which is the actual culprit; never mind that).

What really baffles me is that turning PDC on and off actually changes the output sound quite dramatically - I thought it was all hearsay, but there really is a huge difference. I was working on a bass sequence at the time, and I quickly exported two short loops - one with PDC off and one with PDC on:

PDC on
PDC off

Wow! I've never touched PDC before, always left it on, not even thinking about it, and it really doesn't bother me as such; I'm getting the sound I want, and I don't have any need for turning PDC off, but at least we cannot disregard this as BS any more - PDC does alter the sound. The sound you're hearing in the short samples is from a track containing ONLY Live devices, and the sound is generated by Operator, and the sound does NOT fluctuate in any way as it might have with a VA.

Unless I've misunderstood the whole discussion, Ableton need to recognise this and give us a proper explanation.

beatflux
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Re: Plugin delay compensation. WTF?

Post by beatflux » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:53 pm

2nd link doesn't work.

I hope this isn't a trolling thread.

sporkles
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Re: Plugin delay compensation. WTF?

Post by sporkles » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:57 pm

Fixed - there was a typo in the uploaded file. Please try again.

henke
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Re: Plugin delay compensation. WTF?

Post by henke » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:33 pm

Hi sporkies,
can you please post the set, not just the sound?

if PDC on versus PDC off would sound the same, than having PDC would be pretty stupid in the first place. Just the fact that it sounds different alone does not tell anything else apart from: PDC does something. Before judging if what it does is correct or not, I would need to have more info.

What I would like to know is your routing: which signals go form where to where thru which devices / VSTs. If you send e.g the output of Operator directly from a track into the master and you send it also via a send thru another device then of course PDC on / off actually could sound different if the device in the return track has a latency. If the device in the send has a latency of 1 sample, and you do not compensate for this you'll effectively have some kind of low pass filter in place, and this would explain why the example with the PDC off sounds less bright than the one with PDC on.

So, tell me your routing and I'll tell you if its a bug or a feature ;-)

Robert

sporkles
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Re: Plugin delay compensation. WTF?

Post by sporkles » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:44 pm

I'm not posting my entire set, but I'll see how much I can strip it down and still reproduce the sound discrepancy.

fx23
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Re: Plugin delay compensation. WTF?

Post by fx23 » Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:41 am

something i don't catch , where would come that LP effect from?

i suppose the cutoff is made directly in operator via envelope, and the enveloppe is trigged on note receive no?
how can pdc affect operator internals?

mmm or he use sync lfo, and operator suffer as well of non-compensation of timing clock like vsts???

anybody human
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Re: Plugin delay compensation. WTF?

Post by anybody human » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:25 pm

Phase cancellation, from the return being a few samples late?

ARDJ
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Re: Plugin delay compensation. WTF?

Post by ARDJ » Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:13 pm

henke wrote:Hi sporkies,
can you please post the set, not just the sound?

if PDC on versus PDC off would sound the same, than having PDC would be pretty stupid in the first place. Just the fact that it sounds different alone does not tell anything else apart from: PDC does something. Before judging if what it does is correct or not, I would need to have more info.

What I would like to know is your routing: which signals go form where to where thru which devices / VSTs. If you send e.g the output of Operator directly from a track into the master and you send it also via a send thru another device then of course PDC on / off actually could sound different if the device in the return track has a latency. If the device in the send has a latency of 1 sample, and you do not compensate for this you'll effectively have some kind of low pass filter in place, and this would explain why the example with the PDC off sounds less bright than the one with PDC on.

So, tell me your routing and I'll tell you if its a bug or a feature ;-)

Robert
Robert

I have the same issue w/ izotope OZONE, whether it's on master channel or individual channel it creates latency and automtion issues. I'll post a set tonight when i get in the studio, maybe you can figure it out for me as i'm currently avoiding the plugin all together which right now seems like a waste of $$
Last edited by ARDJ on Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sounds of Samsara
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Re: Plugin delay compensation. WTF?

Post by Sounds of Samsara » Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:19 pm

I have the same issue w/ izotope OZONE, whether it's on master channel or individual channel it creates latency and automtion issues. I'll post a set tonight when i get in the studio, maybe you can figure it out for me as i'm currently avoiding the plugin all together which right seems like a waste of $$
Sorry to derail the thread temporarily, but I thought I'd chime in about the Ozone thing because after several years of using it, I just figured out that you need to enable delay compensation in Ozone's menu. If you haven't already done so, it will make all the difference as far as latency is concerned.

H20nly
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Re: Plugin delay compensation. WTF?

Post by H20nly » Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:39 pm

Sounds of Samsara wrote:
I have the same issue w/ izotope OZONE, whether it's on master channel or individual channel it creates latency and automtion issues. I'll post a set tonight when i get in the studio, maybe you can figure it out for me as i'm currently avoiding the plugin all together which right seems like a waste of $$
Sorry to derail the thread temporarily, but I thought I'd chime in about the Ozone thing because after several years of using it, I just figured out that you need to enable delay compensation in Ozone's menu. If you haven't already done so, it will make all the difference as far as latency is concerned.
oh come on man! why the useful information that makes it the end user's responsibility?!

don't you see you're interfering with the disgruntled Live user's ability to cast all blame on Ableton?
LoopStationZebra wrote:it's like a hipster commie pinko manifesto. Rambling. Angry. Nearly divorced from all reality; yet strangely compelling with a ring of truth.

Piplodocus
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Re: Plugin delay compensation. WTF?

Post by Piplodocus » Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:43 pm

H20nly wrote:don't you see you're interfering with the disgruntled Live user's ability to cast all blame on Ableton?
:mrgreen:

Akshara
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Re: Plugin delay compensation. WTF?

Post by Akshara » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:06 pm

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Last edited by Akshara on Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The Philosopher King
Posts: 190
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Re: Plugin delay compensation. WTF?

Post by The Philosopher King » Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:10 am

Sounds of Samsara wrote:
I have the same issue w/ izotope OZONE, whether it's on master channel or individual channel it creates latency and automtion issues. I'll post a set tonight when i get in the studio, maybe you can figure it out for me as i'm currently avoiding the plugin all together which right seems like a waste of $$
Sorry to derail the thread temporarily, but I thought I'd chime in about the Ozone thing because after several years of using it, I just figured out that you need to enable delay compensation in Ozone's menu. If you haven't already done so, it will make all the difference as far as latency is concerned.
Thank you for this. Gonna try it as soon as I get a chance.

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