Is Ableton really a 'pro audio application' ?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Capitan Mission
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Re: Is Ableton really a 'pro audio application' ?

Post by Capitan Mission » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:18 pm

"Is Ableton really a 'pro audio application' ?"


Im reading that, really?
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ovorigin
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Re: Is Ableton really a 'pro audio application' ?

Post by ovorigin » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:51 am

I know my post is years old but Ive returned and still after all this time the same issue remains. In response to 'did I make sure my reverb is 100% wet' I went one step further than that. I did some tests with no effect at all on my voice and compared it to the original track to how it sounds going through the Aux.

There is a VERY noticeable effect on the sound of my voice, adding a phasing if that is the right word, in my conversations with mixers aux should not change the sound at all.

what is going on, its easy to simulated, put your voice on a track and speak, then send it to aux A and speak again, with headphones on the change is clearly obvious.

can someone set me straight?

TomViolenz
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Re: Is Ableton really a 'pro audio application' ?

Post by TomViolenz » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:40 am

ovorigin wrote: its easy to simulated, put your voice on a track and speak, then send it to aux A and speak again, with headphones on the change is clearly obvious.
How about you post some examples and a few screen shots of what you're doing?!

And no need to hurry, 3 years will give us enough time to prepare for it ;-)

oddstep
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Re: Is Ableton really a 'pro audio application' ?

Post by oddstep » Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:22 pm

ovorigin wrote:I know my post is years old but Ive returned and still after all this time the same issue remains. In response to 'did I make sure my reverb is 100% wet' I went one step further than that. I did some tests with no effect at all on my voice and compared it to the original track to how it sounds going through the Aux.

There is a VERY noticeable effect on the sound of my voice, adding a phasing if that is the right word, in my conversations with mixers aux should not change the sound at all.

what is going on, its easy to simulated, put your voice on a track and speak, then send it to aux A and speak again, with headphones on the change is clearly obvious.

can someone set me straight?
what's going on is that the send is a slightly delayed version of the original. if it bothered me I would experiment with latency settings, optimising the live set and perhaps getting a faster computer or better soundcard. if none of that worked I would probably switch to another production environment which didn't have these phasing issues. Another solution would be to only use sends when this phasing wasn't an aesthetic issue.

chapelier fou
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Re: Is Ableton really a 'pro audio application' ?

Post by chapelier fou » Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:52 pm

just curious (and too lazy to check?), does it happen when you route a track to another track (non return) as well ?
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Valiumdupeuple
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Re: Is Ableton really a 'pro audio application' ?

Post by Valiumdupeuple » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:59 pm

Are you sure there's no delay applied to your aux tracks and saved with your default template ? This option could be hidden (with the little "D" icon on the right side of the master track).

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Re: Is Ableton really a 'pro audio application' ?

Post by leisuremuffin » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:32 am

also make sure to disable sends on the return tracks unless you are using them. having them enabled allows feedback matrices but prevents automatic time correction. If you wish to use feedback on your return tracks, i suggest using native live plug ins or plugs with very low latency.
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ovorigin
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Re: Is Ableton really a 'pro audio application' ?

Post by ovorigin » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:04 pm

[/quote]
what's going on is that the send is a slightly delayed version of the original. if it bothered me I would experiment with latency settings, optimising the live set and perhaps getting a faster computer or better soundcard. if none of that worked I would probably switch to another production environment which didn't have these phasing issues. Another solution would be to only use sends when this phasing wasn't an aesthetic issue.[/quote]

I Agree this is what is happening, I have a 2.6 ivy bridge with an Fireface UC so it has nothing to do with my gear.

Move to another environment? Well there is nothing out there that is practical live, certainly I didnt have the phase issue in Logic but that is useless otherwise live.

Any singer is NOT going to like what it does to their voice, and any mixer is not going to like the thickening of the mix that results either.

Only use sends? Part of the reason to using Aux is being able to mix a dry voice with the reverb to make it sound more natural like every other vocal mix that uses this method to achieve it, not to mention save on cpu, I also want to be able to monitor my own reverb while being able to send a dry one to the desk, which is what re awakened this thread in the first place :)

Im truly shocked this is an issue in such a mature program, its got to be in the 101 of any audio software surely? If it cant route transparently then they got something really wrong right out of the gates with ableton.

sigh, looks like im back to putting the reverb back on my vocal track. Shame on you Ableton.

Can anyone recommend a plugin that sounds better than the waves trueverb I could check out?... my mixer doesnt think its very good.

Angstrom
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Re: Is Ableton really a 'pro audio application' ?

Post by Angstrom » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:21 pm

You are doing it wrong

eyeknow
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Re: Is Ableton really a 'pro audio application' ?

Post by eyeknow » Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:15 pm

TomViolenz wrote:
ovorigin wrote: its easy to simulated, put your voice on a track and speak, then send it to aux A and speak again, with headphones on the change is clearly obvious.
How about you post some examples and a few screen shots of what you're doing?!

And no need to hurry, 3 years will give us enough time to prepare for it ;-)
ha!

fishmonkey
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Re: Is Ableton really a 'pro audio application' ?

Post by fishmonkey » Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:49 am

ovorigin wrote: Only use sends? Part of the reason to using Aux is being able to mix a dry voice with the reverb to make it sound more natural like every other vocal mix that uses this method to achieve it, not to mention save on cpu, I also want to be able to monitor my own reverb while being able to send a dry one to the desk, which is what re awakened this thread in the first place :)

Im truly shocked this is an issue in such a mature program, its got to be in the 101 of any audio software surely? If it cant route transparently then they got something really wrong right out of the gates with ableton.

sigh, looks like im back to putting the reverb back on my vocal track. Shame on you Ableton.
as someone else suggested, post the details of your routing. from what you wrote above it sounds like you can probably avoid the issue by changing your routing setup.

maybe you need some 'pro' routing help...
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oddstep
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Re: Is Ableton really a 'pro audio application' ?

Post by oddstep » Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:10 am

decided to test it out. played a sine wave on operator on midi 1. Sent it to return a (no effects on it) at 100%. once I pulled down the master output to stop it clipping it just sounded like a louder version of the original signal. no phasing.
If I record the output of return A or midi 1, the output looks exactly the same.
this worked for me with a laptop running asio4all with the buffer at 512,128 and 64 samples.
maybe I haven't checked thoroughly enough.

Angstrom
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Re: Is Ableton really a 'pro audio application' ?

Post by Angstrom » Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:27 am

oddstep wrote:decided to test it out. played a sine wave on operator on midi 1. Sent it to return a (no effects on it) at 100%. once I pulled down the master output to stop it clipping it just sounded like a louder version of the original signal. no phasing.
If I record the output of return A or midi 1, the output looks exactly the same.
this worked for me with a laptop running asio4all with the buffer at 512,128 and 64 samples.
maybe I haven't checked thoroughly enough.
I went one better, I created an impulse (a one sample click) every bar, sent it to the return channel.
Resampled and examined wave. Totally fine. Two clicks align to make one double-amplitude click.

I put a phase inverter (utility) on the return
Still totally fine, total cancellation.

I put 8 guitar rigs on a different channel and armed it, to put some latency into the system.
Still totally fine, the impulse phase cancels normally.

yur2die4
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Re: Is Ableton really a 'pro audio application' ?

Post by yur2die4 » Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:39 am

I'm impressed by the guitar rig part. Especially 8 instances!

oddstep
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Re: Is Ableton really a 'pro audio application' ?

Post by oddstep » Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:41 am

Check you and your big rigour. :D

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