Exported song lacks clarity

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
trippin
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Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:57 pm

Exported song lacks clarity

Post by trippin » Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:49 am

Hello Forum,

Just this simple question, I am using NI komplete plus Waldorf BLofeld recorded within Ableton and everything sounds amazing but when the rendering is done (16kbit/44khz the same as source) sound is muffled, there is less air and detail to it. I use foobar for playback and have RME Babyface interface.
It's not that quality is so bad, at least comparing to other music, it is that the quality before rendering is so much clearer, cirsper etc. I really want to know if it is Ableton fault, and I tried different settings (dither etc.) but to no avail. Maybe I should record audio output to other program or make the rewire if it's possible. I really wouldn't like to switch to another DAW, please help..

Cheers,
Bart

timothyallan
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by timothyallan » Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:57 am

Possibly your dithering settings?

trippin
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by trippin » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:02 am

Thx for quick reply, no I don't think so I tried different dither or no dither with similar result. Dither should be used when 'lowering bit resolution' which is not what I am doing.. I dunno maybe I should render in 32 bit? Didn't try.

Khazul
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by Khazul » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:21 am

Are you using a lot of warped audio with groove applied to the resulting clips?
Are you using voxengo or IK multimedia plugins - particularly in parallel audio paths?

Export dithering, bit depth etc should not cause that much of a drastic audible difference.
Nothing to see here - move along!

trippin
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Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:57 pm

Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by trippin » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:38 am

Khazul wrote:Are you using a lot of warped audio with groove applied to the resulting clips?

-No, only complex evolving drone audio track from blofeld

Are you using voxengo or IK multimedia plugins - particularly in parallel audio paths?

-No

Export dithering, bit depth etc should not cause that much of a drastic audible difference.
- I did it, maybe not correct dither, didn't try all

trippin
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by trippin » Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:28 pm

bump..

Tarekith
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by Tarekith » Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:40 pm

Dude, you must trippin.




:arrow:

andrewbrewer
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by andrewbrewer » Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:50 pm

trippin, try playing your rendered audio wav file through ableton, with warping turned off.

This at least could test whether something unintended is happening when you play back through foobar. (I use foobar too)

Also, I have heard that you should try to render with "normalize" turned off, and, before rendering, ensure that the mix never clips (it is easy to monitor the max db level in ableton)

trippin
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by trippin » Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:23 pm

Hi Andrew thanks for answer, good try but I already checked it that way, I played the rendered track through ableton and it does differ from original, I tried with normalize on/off and mix is doesn't clip. I dunno maybe I am audiophile of some sort but have only this one question WHY the rendered audio IS different from what I hear when track is played 'live' directly from Ableton, for me the difference is substantial (sound resolution). Thanx anyway..

Angstrom
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by Angstrom » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:53 pm

the rendered audio should not be different from what you hear.

if this was always the case Live would have a total of about 5 customers.

try comparing a resampled version of the audio with your render.

look up resampling in the manual: set a channel to have an input of 'resample' this will capture exactly what is going out of the mains. Compare that to the render, do a phase inversion test.

there are a number of ways that you can trick yourself or trip yourself up. Oddly a lot of DAW users are infallible and have golden ears, but can still make mistakes.

Khazul
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by Khazul » Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:16 pm

Can you post a few bars as a clip of the export render and a bounce via the loopback feature on your babyface that audible illustrate the difference?

If you bounce via the loopback on the babyface main outs (see totalmixfx manual if you dont know what that is), then you will get an exact 24 bit copy of what you hear so long as the babyface levels and live master level are all set to unity gain (0dbFS). Also make sure record format is set to 24 bit or better in preferences.

If you cant/dont want to post a clip publicly, then capture and submit to ableton support along with the project if its a genuine difference that is definitely not user error.
Nothing to see here - move along!

trippin
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Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:57 pm

Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by trippin » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:34 pm

Sorry I wasn't there for while. Thank you Angstrom and Khazul for advices I will do some test and share the results.

trippin
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by trippin » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:51 pm

Angstrom wrote:the rendered audio should not be different from what you hear.

if this was always the case Live would have a total of about 5 customers.

try comparing a resampled version of the audio with your render.

look up resampling in the manual: set a channel to have an input of 'resample' this will capture exactly what is going out of the mains. Compare that to the render, do a phase inversion test.

there are a number of ways that you can trick yourself or trip yourself up. Oddly a lot of DAW users are infallible and have golden ears, but can still make mistakes.
I just compared resampled version with direct playback and there is the same difference as before, (for example stereo imaging is much less clear) ..

trippin
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Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:57 pm

Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by trippin » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:36 pm

Khazul wrote:Can you post a few bars as a clip of the export render and a bounce via the loopback feature on your babyface that audible illustrate the difference?

If you bounce via the loopback on the babyface main outs (see totalmixfx manual if you dont know what that is), then you will get an exact 24 bit copy of what you hear so long as the babyface levels and live master level are all set to unity gain (0dbFS). Also make sure record format is set to 24 bit or better in preferences.

If you cant/dont want to post a clip publicly, then capture and submit to ableton support along with the project if its a genuine difference that is definitely not user error.

I'd like to post few bars for comparison but I don't quite get loopback feature. I can turn it on but should I record the audio output through another program like Soundforge or Ableton?

tone61
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by tone61 » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:38 pm

I've noticed this same thing many times. Exported files don't sound as good.

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