Exported song lacks clarity

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
kb420
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by kb420 » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:46 pm

I'm not trying to be a smart ass at all, but do you really think it's Live's fault, and not your mix???

Did you eq your mix? Do you know how to effectively eq a mix?
H20nly wrote:fuck Bitwig.

Khazul
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by Khazul » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:17 am

trippin wrote:
Khazul wrote:Can you post a few bars as a clip of the export render and a bounce via the loopback feature on your babyface that audible illustrate the difference?

If you bounce via the loopback on the babyface main outs (see totalmixfx manual if you dont know what that is), then you will get an exact 24 bit copy of what you hear so long as the babyface levels and live master level are all set to unity gain (0dbFS). Also make sure record format is set to 24 bit or better in preferences.

If you cant/dont want to post a clip publicly, then capture and submit to ableton support along with the project if its a genuine difference that is definitely not user error.

I'd like to post few bars for comparison but I don't quite get loopback feature. I can turn it on but should I record the audio output through another program like Soundforge or Ableton?
Record through inputs 1 2.

Recording via totalmix back into live has been fine for me capturing differences - the assumption is ableton won't mess with the signal coming from the audio interface before it writes it to disk - so long as record format set appropriately in preferences - ie 24 bit.
Nothing to see here - move along!

mersault
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by mersault » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:00 am

I'm not trying to cause any controversy here, but I've experienced this many times - to the point where I've accepted this is as the situation, but summing in Live is weak at best. One of Ableton's largest overall weaknesses is summing and I guess its the cause of so many audio engine discussions.

This sort of thing is also the reason why you don't want to do final mixes in Live.

I'm not hating - I use Live for 99% of everything else, but def not for mixing.

trippin
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by trippin » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:46 am

KHAZUL,

OK I'll try that when I get home, this is what I wanted - to record audio directly, as-it-is, I thought that it is what Ableton was doing..

trippin
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by trippin » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:49 am

kb420 wrote:I'm not trying to be a smart ass at all, but do you really think it's Live's fault, and not your mix???

Did you eq your mix? Do you know how to effectively eq a mix?

You don't get the point. It sounds perfect within live and it lacks that outstanding clarity when it is exported to wav (no matter what settings)

trippin
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by trippin » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:11 am

mersault wrote:I'm not trying to cause any controversy here, but I've experienced this many times - to the point where I've accepted this is as the situation, but summing in Live is weak at best. One of Ableton's largest overall weaknesses is summing and I guess its the cause of so many audio engine discussions.

This sort of thing is also the reason why you don't want to do final mixes in Live.

I'm not hating - I use Live for 99% of everything else, but def not for mixing.
If this turns out to be true, and that's what I suspect, then what do you use for final mix, if I may ask? And how do you do it? Do you use ableton as a rewire? Just asking, have never tried it..

Goddard
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by Goddard » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:33 am

I would say: RTFM sides 514, 515, 516 in particular... Despite 24bit interface I always use 32bit resolution in Live and bounce without normalizing... And everything sounds nice and clear... 96kHz highly recommended btw... Cheers.
"Machines are the weapon employed by the capitalists to quell the revolt of specialized labor" Karl Marx

trippin
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by trippin » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:31 am

Goddard wrote:I would say: RTFM sides 514, 515, 516 in particular... Despite 24bit interface I always use 32bit resolution in Live and bounce without normalizing... And everything sounds nice and clear... 96kHz highly recommended btw... Cheers.
I read it and found nothing new, as I said I tried exporting at 24bit and 32bit too without much of a difference. I am happy to work at 44kHz.

Khazul
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by Khazul » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:21 pm

trippin wrote:KHAZUL,

OK I'll try that when I get home, this is what I wanted - to record audio directly, as-it-is, I thought that it is what Ableton was doing..
In theory yes, in practice I have come across specific situations where export != what you hear. TBH - I don't think you are hitting the situations I know of, but who knows? - either way I'm definitely interested to at least hear if there is a difference and if so understand why as its always good to know about quirks just to be able to avoid them :)
Nothing to see here - move along!

Goddard
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by Goddard » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:09 pm

trippin wrote:
Goddard wrote:I would say: RTFM sides 514, 515, 516 in particular... Despite 24bit interface I always use 32bit resolution in Live and bounce without normalizing... And everything sounds nice and clear... 96kHz highly recommended btw... Cheers.
I read it and found nothing new, as I said I tried exporting at 24bit and 32bit too without much of a difference. I am happy to work at 44kHz.
I don't think you are. What is that thread about then? In 16bit your headroom (noise floor)ends within 96dB.
In 24bit headroom is 144dB and with 32bit "sky is the limit" (192db);). And remember to keep your levels below 0dBFS (limit at -0.1dB) to keep that "air" you're missing.
Anyway I thing your issues are bull... You're not that thick, are you?
Or as Tarekith wrote, you're just trippin'...
Good luck.
"Machines are the weapon employed by the capitalists to quell the revolt of specialized labor" Karl Marx

mr.ergonomics
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by mr.ergonomics » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:50 pm

Khazul wrote:
trippin wrote:KHAZUL,

OK I'll try that when I get home, this is what I wanted - to record audio directly, as-it-is, I thought that it is what Ableton was doing..
In theory yes, in practice I have come across specific situations where export != what you hear. TBH - I don't think you are hitting the situations I know of, but who knows? - either way I'm definitely interested to at least hear if there is a difference and if so understand why as its always good to know about quirks just to be able to avoid them :)
can you name some situations? very interested.

tylenol
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by tylenol » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:04 pm

This is just a really basic suggestion, but listening to things louder or quieter has a huge range of subjective effects beyond just the perception of volume, including how clear things sound, how airy, etc -- the ear has a varying frequency response according to loudness. So you absolutely have to ensure that you are matching the levels when listening to it outside of ableton vs. listening to it inside, and this can actually be a little tricky to do in my experience because ableton doesn't conform to the system volumes. I think this is why the suggestion of playing the track in ableton comes up so much in these threads, because that sets up a situation where you are already likely to have the levels somewhat matched.

tw1nstates
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by tw1nstates » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:07 pm

Tone 61 - user error somewhere in there.
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Khazul
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by Khazul » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:32 pm

mr.ergonomics wrote:can you name some situations? very interested.
Theres another thread on here that covers it in detail I started a few weeks ago - consolidate bug (sorry dont have link to it, but search should find it). I found a bunch of other minor quirks related to bounces and exports while picking that apart - the main problem was a lack of consistency between various methods of bouncing and playback sttart poisitions, looping etc.

Warped audio with groove seems to agrivate it particularly. You can get single sample slips (from warping) as well which if you have in parallel to a bounced version of the warped audio in another track will sound drastically different on an export - just down to sample position rounding as far as I can tell a often a bounce wont be the same either, or a consolidate. Best reads the last couple of posts in the thread for preliminary details.

Normally such differences are completely inaudible as normally a single sample slip doesnt matter ayt all, but sometimes it can if you have precisely aligned transients etc, and done silly things (but still things you might logicaly expect to work until you understand how underlying audio processing works in a daw) like bouncing a warp for some parellel processing, but not using the bounce on both paths. In worst case - it can be very audidble.
Nothing to see here - move along!

mersault
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Re: Exported song lacks clarity

Post by mersault » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:23 pm

to the OP:

Mix in protools - that's sort of the standard, what most pros/semi-pros use, etc. More and more people are mixing in Logic these days too. I don't believe that the sound quality itself is better in Logic, but the features and editing capabilities are better - in the case where you want to do some edits during the final mix. Protools might have the edge in actual sound quality, but its debatable. I myself have grown more and more curious about Logic in this regard, but I have no experience to back it up.

Ableton is GREAT in so many ways, mixing is not one of them. For best results, mix in something else.

And yes, render each individual track out of LIVE. Export audio, select "all tracks" - that will give you separate audio files for each track. Bring those tracks into your mixing software. ----Even if you're not doing any processing in the mix, this should still greatly improve what Ableton is giving you in the rendered track.

An all in one software would be fantastic, but as of now- I see no way of using less than two in making records!!!

I've been doing things this way for years, if there's a better option - I'd love to know about it!!!

Logic seems to be closest to being an all-in-one, but there are too many things I'd miss in LIVE.

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