Could the reason that Ableton sounds bad to some be because

[perplex]

of Oversampling?

When you have an eq8 on one chain, and an eq8 on another chain, and one is hi quality, and one is not hi quality, the inconsistency is making your track sound slightly muddy?

Or lets say, i have saturation or delay on a track, and an eq8 on the same track. If The Eq8 is high quality, and the saturation is not hi quality it will conflict and sound muddy.

Are there other little secrets like this that might contribute to bad mixes? I think ableton is getting a bad wrap because of things like this. But in reality its the BEST DAW EVER MADE

[maky355]

You have been misinformed by someone. I any of your case you mentioned it simply does not matter. Hi quality means oversampling but if you put one after another which does not have oversampling it won't conflict with anything. Who told you that anyway? Read articles on oversampling or educate yourself on that subject.

There is nothing wrong with Ableton sound quality. It is just the same as in any other host. Did you ever asked yourself why people say this yet when test is done properly there is not literally any single proof to support this claim?? Al lyou see is people talk about FL Studio being inferior to Reason or vice versa, or Cubase etc.etc. yet no one ever in human history provided any single proof.

Do you know why? Because sound quality is just the same as in every other host. They totally phase cancel each other when test is done properly. Check also phase cancel test and what it does mean in digital audio.

[LeifonMars]

Reasons vary, and I am confident, that in most cases the reason is just general noobness. However there are some things that cause unnecessary bad first impressions such as:

1. I never get it why the heck in the default mode of the simpler release has to be set to 50 ms. This causes 1000 times asked question: I have this booming kick sample but once I drop it into the simpler it lacks punch and everything which I can't define. Why is that?

2. Another thing is to have warping on by default.

[perplex]

You have been misinformed by someone. I any of your case you mentioned it simply does not matter. Hi quality means oversampling but if you put one after another which does not have oversampling it won't conflict with anything. Who told you that anyway? Read articles on oversampling or educate yourself on that subject.

There is nothing wrong with Ableton sound quality. It is just the same as in any other host. Did you ever asked yourself why people say this yet when test is done properly there is not literally any single proof to support this claim?? Al lyou see is people talk about FL Studio being inferior to Reason or vice versa, or Cubase etc.etc. yet no one ever in human history provided any single proof.

Do you know why? Because sound quality is just the same as in every other host. They totally phase cancel each other when test is done properly. Check also phase cancel test and what it does mean in digital audio.

no one told me. I actually did this myself. Maybe I have the terminolgy wrong, but the situation is real. Put a song clip in simpler, then create a rack. then create a duplicate chain. throw an eq on both of them, and put one eq on hi quality, and the other not high quality. then solo and unsolo one to compare. you will see it will introduce a muddy texture. then when you set them both to hi quality, or uncheck both, there will just be a increase/decrease in volume only - no muddyness.



and also I don't appreciate your tone of voice. I believe ableton is good as the rest, and maybe even better. Im just saying little things like this can introduce confusion to users and have them easily persuaded in the "daw wars" debate

[3dot...]

it's more likely to be. the" unpro "graphics ...
you see.. there aren't any shiny knobs and faders..
and the vu fades between only 2 colors ..
and there aren't any sub-windows ..(except the prefs.)
which is also very "un-pro"



"admit it already!!!)

[Angstrom]

of Oversampling?

When you have an eq8 on one chain, and an eq8 on another chain, and one is hi quality, and one is not hi quality, the inconsistency is making your track sound slightly muddy?

you are actually nearly right, if you are talking about two parallel chains processing the same material. the two modes operate slightly differently with the 'high-quality' mode using oversampling, meaning it operates at a multiple of your current project samplefrequency. A 'normal' EQ8 can be seen to have a sharp drop-off as it approaches nyquist on its plot(22khz), the oversampled EQ8 doesn't show this, because it's calculating up above nyquist.

now the drawback - theoversampled (HiQ) EQ8 introduces a 1 sample delay, which is unavoidable in oversampling, and would be fine enough if it was in a linear chain, as it could be compensated, but in two parallel chains where one is high, and one is 'normal' you get a 1 sample offset between two copies.

Every EQ implements phase shifting to produce sound, that's unless they are a posh 'linear phase' EQ. So if you route a 'HiQ EQ8' in parallel with a 'normal' EQ8 and pass the same audio stream through both you will find the offset introduces some phase issues, you could even call it ... muddiness!

so, you win one internet point.

solution:
only use matching Hi-Q, or 'normal' EQ8 effects on each individual channel, don't mix and match on parallel chains on one channel. You can mix and match between channels of course, because the sources are not usually meant to be phase coherent. Unless it's something like group of drum mics from a tracking session perhaps.

Caveats
NOTE #1: I only barely know what I am talking about, if you are reading this and you barely understand the terms used, then you really don't know what this is about. So don't try and use the info in a badly thought out internet argument about sound quality. It makes the internet cry.
NOTE #2: I am not an Ableton engineer, for all I know this issue may now be fixed, or I may have it ass backwards.
NOTE #3: Before you assume that this gives weight to the "summing in another app" argument, consider that this is a situation based per-channel issue, so if you created some badly mixed-up parallel chains then your posh external sum will still have this outcome!

[simpli.cissimus]

of Oversampling?

When you have an eq8 on one chain, and an eq8 on another chain, and one is hi quality, and one is not hi quality, the inconsistency is making your track sound slightly muddy?

you are actually nearly right, if you are talking about two parallel chains processing the same material. the two modes operate slightly differently with the 'high-quality' mode using oversampling, meaning it operates at a multiple of your current project samplefrequency. A 'normal' EQ8 can be seen to have a sharp drop-off as it approaches nyquist on its plot(22khz), the oversampled EQ8 doesn't show this, because it's calculating up above nyquist.

now the drawback - theoversampled (HiQ) EQ8 introduces a 1 sample delay, which is unavoidable in oversampling, and would be fine enough if it was in a linear chain, as it could be compensated, but in two parallel chains where one is high, and one is 'normal' you get a 1 sample offset between two copies.

Every EQ implements phase shifting to produce sound, that's unless they are a posh 'linear phase' EQ. So if you route a 'HiQ EQ8' in parallel with a 'normal' EQ8 and pass the same audio stream through both you will find the offset introduces some phase issues, you could even call it ... muddiness!

so, you win one internet point.

solution:
only use matching Hi-Q, or 'normal' EQ8 effects on each individual channel, don't mix and match on parallel chains on one channel. You can mix and match between channels of course, because the sources are not usually meant to be phase coherent. Unless it's something like group of drum mics from a tracking session perhaps.

Caveats
NOTE #1: I only barely know what I am talking about, if you are reading this and you barely understand the terms used, then you really don't know what this is about. So don't try and use the info in a badly thought out internet argument about sound quality. It makes the internet cry.
NOTE #2: I am not an Ableton engineer, for all I know this issue may now be fixed, or I may have it ass backwards.
NOTE #3: Before you assume that this gives weight to the "summing in another app" argument, consider that this is a situation based per-channel issue, so if you created some badly mixed-up parallel chains then your posh external sum will still have this outcome!

Isn't that now fixed since 8.2.2 ???

[nylarch]

Reasons vary, and I am confident, that in most cases the reason is just general noobness. However there are some things that cause unnecessary bad first impressions such as:

1. I never get it why the heck in the default mode of the simpler release has to be set to 50 ms. This causes 1000 times asked question: I have this booming kick sample but once I drop it into the simpler it lacks punch and everything which I can't define. Why is that?

2. Another thing is to have warping on by default.

so true - would add "auto fades" to that list. At one point I spent a lot of time dropping one shot drums into Live and Logic and saying Logic sounded snappier - 'til I finally noticed they all had fades in Live....

Live ships in "live" mode, which it should. If you drop samples into a live set you don't want clicks and pops so auto fades are absolutely the right choice. But then noobs start using it for production, leave it in "live" mode and then say it sucks. If anything Ableton can be faulted for not making it clear in the manuel. I would hate to see some big "switch to DAW mode" button but that would make it obvious.

[Angstrom]

<snip>theoversampled (HiQ) EQ8 introduces a 1 sample delay, blah blah blah, So if you route a 'HiQ EQ8' in parallel with a 'normal' EQ8 and pass the same audio stream through both you will find..., etc ...</snip>

Isn't that now fixed since 8.2.2 ???

Really? I didn't spot it in the changelogs
http://www.ableton.com/latest-release-notes
It could have been though, and they may have forgotten to list it.

I try to keep to the methodology of matching modes anyway, it's not a bad practice.

[hacktheplanet]

It's because the people who complain about Live's sound quality don't have the skills to make their compositions sound good... So they just blame the software.

[timothyallan]

<snip>theoversampled (HiQ) EQ8 introduces a 1 sample delay, blah blah blah, So if you route a 'HiQ EQ8' in parallel with a 'normal' EQ8 and pass the same audio stream through both you will find..., etc ...</snip>

Isn't that now fixed since 8.2.2 ???

Really? I didn't spot it in the changelogs
http://www.ableton.com/latest-release-notes
It could have been though, and they may have forgotten to list it.

I try to keep to the methodology of matching modes anyway, it's not a bad practice.

I actually demonstrate this in my Live tips and tricks video and how using an oversampling saturator in a rack can bugger up your sound. http://www.groove3.com/str/live-tips-and-tricks.html

The chapter called Oversampling & High Quality - Why High Quality doesn't always equal high quality.

[Evengy]

Reasons vary, and I am confident, that in most cases the reason is just general noobness. However there are some things that cause unnecessary bad first impressions such as:

1. I never get it why the heck in the default mode of the simpler release has to be set to 50 ms. This causes 1000 times asked question: I have this booming kick sample but once I drop it into the simpler it lacks punch and everything which I can't define. Why is that?

2. Another thing is to have warping on by default.

so true - would add "auto fades" to that list. At one point I spent a lot of time dropping one shot drums into Live and Logic and saying Logic sounded snappier - 'til I finally noticed they all had fades in Live....

Live ships in "live" mode, which it should. If you drop samples into a live set you don't want clicks and pops so auto fades are absolutely the right choice. But then noobs start using it for production, leave it in "live" mode and then say it sucks. If anything Ableton can be faulted for not making it clear in the manuel. I would hate to see some big "switch to DAW mode" button but that would make it obvious.

Hehe, that are the reasons why i though live 8 sounds bad at the beginning (a year ago) ^^
Maybe the -12db on simpler as default as well =D (why is daw xyz louder or has more punch ^^)

[perplex]

I actually demonstrate this in my Live tips and tricks video and how using an oversampling saturator in a rack can bugger up your sound. http://www.groove3.com/str/live-tips-and-tricks.html

The chapter called Oversampling & High Quality - Why High Quality doesn't always equal high quality.

thanks for chiming in Timothy! I actually tried to "google" my problem. and i found a search to your tutorial. i need to watch it all soon. cheers

[rekloos]

of Oversampling?

When you have an eq8 on one chain, and an eq8 on another chain, and one is hi quality, and one is not hi quality, the inconsistency is making your track sound slightly muddy?

you are actually nearly right, if you are talking about two parallel chains processing the same material. the two modes operate slightly differently with the 'high-quality' mode using oversampling, meaning it operates at a multiple of your current project samplefrequency. A 'normal' EQ8 can be seen to have a sharp drop-off as it approaches nyquist on its plot(22khz), the oversampled EQ8 doesn't show this, because it's calculating up above nyquist.

now the drawback - theoversampled (HiQ) EQ8 introduces a 1 sample delay, which is unavoidable in oversampling, and would be fine enough if it was in a linear chain, as it could be compensated, but in two parallel chains where one is high, and one is 'normal' you get a 1 sample offset between two copies.

Every EQ implements phase shifting to produce sound, that's unless they are a posh 'linear phase' EQ. So if you route a 'HiQ EQ8' in parallel with a 'normal' EQ8 and pass the same audio stream through both you will find the offset introduces some phase issues, you could even call it ... muddiness!

so, you win one internet point.

solution:
only use matching Hi-Q, or 'normal' EQ8 effects on each individual channel, don't mix and match on parallel chains on one channel. You can mix and match between channels of course, because the sources are not usually meant to be phase coherent. Unless it's something like group of drum mics from a tracking session perhaps.

Caveats
NOTE #1: I only barely know what I am talking about, if you are reading this and you barely understand the terms used, then you really don't know what this is about. So don't try and use the info in a badly thought out internet argument about sound quality. It makes the internet cry.
NOTE #2: I am not an Ableton engineer, for all I know this issue may now be fixed, or I may have it ass backwards.
NOTE #3: Before you assume that this gives weight to the "summing in another app" argument, consider that this is a situation based per-channel issue, so if you created some badly mixed-up parallel chains then your posh external sum will still have this outcome!

+1
nice breakdown

[maky355]

You need to activate plugin delay compensation and it will be fine. Read how to do it via Option.txt file