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 Post subject: Spectrum/EQ/Low-end problems - am I a dummy?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:23 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:20 am
Posts: 30
While I'm trying to roll off all frequencies under around 100Hz for instruments that either aren't supposed to be bassy, or basses that need to leave room for the actual SUB bass, I notice, through Spectrum, that I'm still getting frequencies as low as 12Hz. Is there something I'm doing wrong? Or is this normal? I looked up a YouTube video on mixing using Spectrum, and the guy who made the video didn't seem to have a problem rolling off these frequencies.

I'm just trying to get my mixes to ACTUALLY sound good, rather than me just THINK they sound good.


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 Post subject: Re: Spectrum/EQ/Low-end problems - am I a dummy?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:09 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:39 pm
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Location: RIGHT BEHIND YOU! No, really...
Try stacking filters, e.g. several high pass filters with the same setting.

But yeah, I have that problem too. The EQ8 and Auto Filter filters really aren't that great, especially the high pass filters.

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 Post subject: Re: Spectrum/EQ/Low-end problems - am I a dummy?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:29 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:26 pm
Posts: 3461
Location: Wageningen, Netherlands
lookwhaticando wrote:
While I'm trying to roll off all frequencies under around 100Hz for instruments that either aren't supposed to be bassy, or basses that need to leave room for the actual SUB bass, I notice, through Spectrum, that I'm still getting frequencies as low as 12Hz. Is there something I'm doing wrong?

Well, as long as you're not telling us how you did this its kinda impossible to determine if you're doing it right or wrong...

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 Post subject: Re: Spectrum/EQ/Low-end problems - am I a dummy?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:45 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:20 am
Posts: 30
Sorry -

I just have an audio track with an EQ-8/Spectrum chain, with the EQ first, and Spectrum last.

Is it really just more of a problem with Live's built-in EQ's? Or am I missing something insanely dumb?


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 Post subject: Re: Spectrum/EQ/Low-end problems - am I a dummy?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:35 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:30 pm
Posts: 678
Is Spectrum really that accurate?

12Hz is really low, do you have tempo-synched effects in any of your sounds? Spectrum might be reacting to that.

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 Post subject: Re: Spectrum/EQ/Low-end problems - am I a dummy?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:20 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:20 am
Posts: 30
Image

Image

Although the lower frequencies do seem to be attenuated, theoretically, shouldn't everything below 100Hz be completely muted?


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 Post subject: Re: Spectrum/EQ/Low-end problems - am I a dummy?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 5:36 pm 

Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 12:15 pm
Posts: 3458
Hi-Q activated ?

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 Post subject: Re: Spectrum/EQ/Low-end problems - am I a dummy?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 5:54 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:20 am
Posts: 30
chapelier fou wrote:
Hi-Q activated ?


It is, both on the EQ and the WAV file.


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 Post subject: Re: Spectrum/EQ/Low-end problems - am I a dummy?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:31 pm 

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 2:21 pm
Posts: 1076
Location: Paris
You're not a dummy, I have the same behavior, and I remember reading some explainations about that, it's about how steep is the filter, but honestly I never understood that correctly so I wouldn't mind someone explainning it again ...


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 Post subject: Re: Spectrum/EQ/Low-end problems - am I a dummy?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:52 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 10
It's because of how filters work. You've heard of a 24db and 12db filters (low pass, or high pass), what they mean is that the volume of the frequencies bellow the threshold are reduced by 24db (or 12db) per octave. What this means is when you're high passing you're not just slicing off the sound at the cut off, but the frequencies bellow the cut-off are reduced by an amount depending on the slope of the filter (24/12 or you can find 36db and 48db as well) and how many octaves the frequency is from the cutoff, so the further from the cutoff the more the frequency is reduced. I don't actually know what slope the eq8's filter is, I would guess 24db. So its fairly normal to high pass it and still be left with some low end. I think one reason why generally eq's don't just cut at exactly the cut-off is because I think it would sound quite unatural.

Hope that explained it...


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 Post subject: Re: Spectrum/EQ/Low-end problems - am I a dummy?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:32 am 

Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:39 pm
Posts: 2050
Location: RIGHT BEHIND YOU! No, really...
R7 wrote:
It's because of how filters work. You've heard of a 24db and 12db filters (low pass, or high pass), what they mean is that the volume of the frequencies bellow the threshold are reduced by 24db (or 12db) per octave. What this means is when you're high passing you're not just slicing off the sound at the cut off, but the frequencies bellow the cut-off are reduced by an amount depending on the slope of the filter (24/12 or you can find 36db and 48db as well) and how many octaves the frequency is from the cutoff, so the further from the cutoff the more the frequency is reduced. I don't actually know what slope the eq8's filter is, I would guess 24db. So its fairly normal to high pass it and still be left with some low end. I think one reason why generally eq's don't just cut at exactly the cut-off is because I think it would sound quite unatural.

Hope that explained it...


Exactly.

If you duplicate the HP filter with the same exact settings several times then it will make the slope steeper and steeper. So if you've got one EQ 8 with a high pass filter set at 40hz with a Q of .71 you're filter has a slope of 12db/octave (though this is unrelated to the frequency and Q settings). If you now add a second high pass filter with the same settings of 40hz and .71 Q, then you've now run the two filters in series meaning that the combined slope is now 24db/octave. You can keep doing this to get a steeper slope (e.g. 4 EQ 8 filters in series = a 48db/octave slope).

A lot of other filters will actually have a parameter to change the slope (usually between 12db/octave and 24db/octave), but both EQ 8 and Auto Filter have a 12db/octave slope with no way to change it (except as just described). So if you don't want to go through the trouble of "stacking" filters in a situation like this, I'd look around for another filter with an adjustable slope.

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 Post subject: Re: Spectrum/EQ/Low-end problems - am I a dummy?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:20 am 

Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 10:24 am
Posts: 1223
The latest version of DDMF's IIEQPro has got amazingly steep filters (60db) which are perfect for the extreme cuts that you're after. Cheap too. Highly recommended.

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 Post subject: Re: Spectrum/EQ/Low-end problems - am I a dummy?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:04 am 

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 2:21 pm
Posts: 1076
Location: Paris
beautiful, thanks a lot guys !


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 Post subject: Re: Spectrum/EQ/Low-end problems - am I a dummy?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:20 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:55 pm
Posts: 134
Location: B.....
You don't have to get another filter tool. Theres an easy way to handle this in ableton.

HP/LP Total Kill Rack (in 60 seconds)

- take an eq8, set filter 1 to hp and filter 4 to lp
- Duplicate this one with Ctrl+D several times (5 or 6 should do)
- Select them all and group them
- map the freq controls of each filter 1 to macro 1 of the rack and do the freq controls of filter 4 to macro 2
- minimize all the filters but the first
- done!

If you want to spend some more time you can also set up different stacks of filters in seperate chains of the effect rack (chain 1: 1 filter, chain 2: 2 filters, chain 3: 3 filters, and so on) and adjust a macro to the chain selector. so you can choose how many filters you want to use in a row.

Image

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Last edited by noland on Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Spectrum/EQ/Low-end problems - am I a dummy?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:26 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:55 pm
Posts: 134
Location: B.....
del

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