Something for the Ableton development team to think about.

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
hoffman2k
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Re: Something for the Ableton development team to think about.

Post by hoffman2k » Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:35 am

Jarvisimon wrote:
hoffman2k wrote:
GPU real-time audio processing... I'd set aside any hopes for another 7 years. (or 3.5 years according to Moore)
As i've stated in another answer, the "knight's ferry" GPUCPU is already in the hands of developers http://www.trubritarforums.com/index.ph ... hts-ferry/ so I doubt it will be even 3.5 yrs until the music software industry gets a whiff.

Wouldn't you like to see people take the initiative and get on the case asap?
It took them a decade to embrace 64-bit. And don't forget we're still waiting for our software to go 64-bit.
Audio Software makers will do nothing to advance this. Especially not if the software is cross-platform.
Support will come at an OS level. And if you take Ableton for example, they're not exactly known for embracing core level technology that is better than their cross-platform code. Live has the slowest browser I know, meanwhile Spotlight archived my entire drive into a file that Live could read from. But since its so different from search in the 3 versions of windows people are running, we end up with the inferior cross-platform solution.

Developers had access to 64-bit computers for much longer than consumers could afford them. I don't see how you can believe GPU technology will develop any faster.

What has changed since this article from 2006? http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_37226.html

Jarvisimon
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Re: Something for the Ableton development team to think about.

Post by Jarvisimon » Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:03 am

hoffman2k wrote: It took them a decade to embrace 64-bit. And don't forget we're still waiting for our software to go 64-bit.
I know, this is why i'm trying to encourage people to demand we make the most out of current technology.

Wouldn't it be so much better were all the software companies looking at exploiting these advancements as and when they appeared?
hoffman2k wrote: Audio Software makers will do nothing to advance this. Especially not if the software is cross-platform.
Support will come at an OS level.
I don't quite understand what you mean here. Windows 7 is already capable of getting the most out of this hardware.
hoffman2k wrote: And if you take Ableton for example, they're not exactly known for embracing core level technology that is better than their cross-platform code. Live has the slowest browser I know, meanwhile Spotlight archived my entire drive into a file that Live could read from. But since its so different from search in the 3 versions of windows people are running, we end up with the inferior cross-platform solution.
All the more reason to ask them to step up to the mark. Also, I think Ableton are a very forward thinking company and whilst I don't expect Live 9 to have "knights ferry" in their sights, it's not impossible that Live 11/12 could.
hoffman2k wrote: Developers had access to 64-bit computers for much longer than consumers could afford them. I don't see how you can believe GPU technology will develop any faster.
It's about supply and demand. If we don't ask for it, we're not going to get it and even when 64 computing became affordable, it was under-developed because the software companies played it safe and not enough people asked them to do otherwise.
hoffman2k wrote: What has changed since this article from 2006? http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_37226.html
The main difference is that these new GPU's are capable of running many multiple instances of our favourite applications at full power without track freezing or any other kind of rendering. The sooner the industry is seen to adopt the new technology, the faster its development will be, so whilst this new chip is 32 cores running at 1.1 Ghz per core, they'd soon scale that up to 100+ cores running at 3+ Ghz. Now although that seems like overkill, we'd soon be writing applications that took this to the limit.

Again, wouldn't it be so much better were every manufacturer ready for each subsequent leap in technology as they became available?

Look around at the multitude of newly released soundcards. How many are incorporating USB3 into their designs? Whilst we're still showing our content to part with our money for USB 2, the industry is going to sit on its arse and do nothing to change the game. It's the public that needs to tell them what to do but whilst it's only a few voices, they're not going to listen.

The technology is there. I want it tomorrow, not a few years down the road!
Last edited by Jarvisimon on Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

3dot...
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Re: Something for the Ableton development team to think about.

Post by 3dot... » Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:06 am

hoffman2k wrote: But since its so different from search in the 3 versions of windows people are running, we end up with the inferior cross-platform solution.
as far as developing for different platforms...
I think windows os gives much less of a hassle for developers..
much less moving stuff around.. and if they do.. they usually take care of backwards compatibility..
for evidence : I can run Live 5/6/7/8 and all my old vsts ... on a latest windows7 64bit..with no problems (90% of the time)
even though most of it has not been actively developed/updated for a long time..
I doubt it works the same on apples...you have to keep the old computer to run stuff..

I don't think being cross-platform is a problem.. a solution could be found for all os..
almost anything implemented in 1 os.. has a solution in the next..
(except maybe for hw/driver architecture issues)
also there are many 3rd party companies/developers that specialize in small..cross-platform solutions.
so I really don't think that's an issue..
if you chose to sell to a certain platform than you should be fully aware of the cost.
Live search should be free of 'spotlight'/'explorer'..
this is one of the costs of 'cross-platform'..being for the most part independent of os.

Ableton .. buy a good set of searching/indexing algos.. 3rd party..that are multi-platform
I'm sure there are plenty out there...
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Re: Something for the Ableton development team to think about.

Post by 3dot... » Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:07 am

Jarvisimon wrote:
The technology is there. I want it tomorrow, not a few years down the road!
then become a developer !
YOU have the power to bring it to the masses..
I'm serious btw.. 8)
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Jarvisimon
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Re: Something for the Ableton development team to think about.

Post by Jarvisimon » Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:40 am

3dot... wrote:
Jarvisimon wrote:
The technology is there. I want it tomorrow, not a few years down the road!
then become a developer !
YOU have the power to bring it to the masses..
I'm serious btw.. 8)
I have also seriously thought about learning a programming language. The question is, where do I begin?

Apparently C++ isn't incredibly difficult to learn but understanding how to connect your application to hardware is.

And even if I did learn it to any degree of success, writing up to the standard needed for the "knights ferry" is way beyond what I'd be capable of for at least another 5 years or more.

I think i'd rather learn to program for android phone anyway....or windows 7 phone as I think that's going to take big leaps in the market place soon.

hoffman2k
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Re: Something for the Ableton development team to think about.

Post by hoffman2k » Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:17 am

If you gathered all musicians and made them demand progress... It would look like 0.5% of computer users are demanding progress. And that is probably a generous figure.
Jarvisimon wrote:I think i'd rather learn to program for android phone anyway....or windows 7 phone as I think that's going to take big leaps in the market place soon.
In a topic about progress, you seem to put much faith behind the 2 platforms who are just playing catch-up.
The only reason Android is gaining ground is because of costs. In Belgium, an iphone 4 will set you back about 600€. And that is without a subscription. So naturally, Android phones sell better here.
If Apple comes out with a 200€ iphone which would come with iOS 5 (ie. No iTunes/PC needed), its pretty much game over for the Win 7 phone and Android will lose a bit of momentum.
Its still not possible to do decent real-time audio or even MIDI on Android. And I'm not making that up, comes from the mouth of Peter Kirn who is following these developments very closely.

The mentality has to change before the technology can change. Perfect example is Nintendo. They're losing tons of money.
The CEO is totally against developing for platforms other than their own consoles.
If they released Super Mario Bros for iOS, they'd probably make more money than their 3DS is currently making. And thats just one classic game. Even I can afford the resources required to port that game. So its not a matter of cost.
Its just stubbornness. Probably coupled with some loathing for Apple. You know, the guys with the leading mobile gaming platform...

Jarvisimon
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Re: Something for the Ableton development team to think about.

Post by Jarvisimon » Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:45 am

hoffman2k wrote: If you gathered all musicians and made them demand progress... It would look like 0.5% of computer users are demanding progress. And that is probably a generous figure.
Not sure about that. I think the musician share of the market is in the 10's of percent, not fractions.
Jarvisimon wrote:I think i'd rather learn to program for android phone anyway....or windows 7 phone as I think that's going to take big leaps in the market place soon.
hoffman2k wrote: In a topic about progress, you seem to put much faith behind the 2 platforms who are just playing catch-up.
The only reason Android is gaining ground is because of costs. In Belgium, an iphone 4 will set you back about 600€. And that is without a subscription. So naturally, Android phones sell better here.
If Apple comes out with a 200€ iphone which would come with iOS 5 (ie. No iTunes/PC needed), its pretty much game over for the Win 7 phone and Android will lose a bit of momentum.
Actually, I mentioned android and windows because they have HTC on their books and HTC are making the best phone hardware by a mile. I'm about to upgrade my HD7 to the HTC sensation, so that's Windows 7 to Android, 1Ghz snapdragon to dual 1.2Ghz snapdragon. Also, windows 7 phone is now being adopted by Nokia. All Nokia phones will be running Windows 7 from now on.

As far as hardware goes, it's the iphone that's playing catch up, though I believe they're aiming to improve on that with the iphone 5. The main appeal for the iphone is they have the superior app store.
hoffman2k wrote: Its still not possible to do decent real-time audio or even MIDI on Android. And I'm not making that up, comes from the mouth of Peter Kirn who is following these developments very closely.
Isn't this hardware specific? Android is open source, so someone will get there. It's capable of OSC, so maybe that as an alternative is better.
hoffman2k wrote: The mentality has to change before the technology can change.
Fine. Help me.
hoffman2k wrote: Perfect example is Nintendo. They're losing tons of money.
The CEO is totally against developing for platforms other than their own consoles.
If they released Super Mario Bros for iOS, they'd probably make more money than their 3DS is currently making. And thats just one classic game. Even I can afford the resources required to port that game. So its not a matter of cost.
Its just stubbornness. Probably coupled with some loathing for Apple. You know, the guys with the leading mobile gaming platform...
Windows 7 phone is due to overtake iOS in the games department. Remember, it's got the power of the Xbox inside, not to be sniffed at.

Apple have their app store....nice but not as advanced.
Last edited by Jarvisimon on Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Piplodocus
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Re: Something for the Ableton development team to think about.

Post by Piplodocus » Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:28 pm

What did happen to OpenCL? Is it still a going concern? Does anyone use it?

I thought there'd be a few nice API's that programmers would jump on the chance to be able to make their app run faster and harness unused GPU power of all the main GPU manufacturers with one standard...

Felonius
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Re: Something for the Ableton development team to think about.

Post by Felonius » Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:26 pm

Moody wrote:Are you seriously suggesting that Ableton should be expected to keep up with developments on prototype supercomputing cluster architectures?

This might make sense if users were willing to pay $3000 for Live. Maybe.

Tone Deft
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Re: Something for the Ableton development team to think about.

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:21 pm

Jarvisimon - I dig your other posts but in this case do you think it's possible that there are topics that other people on this Worldwide forum have deeper insight into? just because a microprocessor exists doesn't mean it's for general consumption.
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Jarvisimon
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Re: Something for the Ableton development team to think about.

Post by Jarvisimon » Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:50 pm

Tone Deft wrote:Jarvisimon - I dig your other posts but in this case do you think it's possible that there are topics that other people on this Worldwide forum have deeper insight into? just because a microprocessor exists doesn't mean it's for general consumption.
Glad you appreciate some of my other posts. If you read again, you'll notice that I acknowledge the Knights Ferry GPU hasn't been released to the music software industry yet but it is being studied by the upper echelons of the science world. I'd hazard a guess that it's a couple of years before any of my favourite developers get to see one, so i'm not talking about something literally happening tomorrow, or even this year but quite possibly by 2013/2014 and if that happens, i'd love to have a musical use for it when it does grace our stockists shelves.

However, it definitely will be for general consumption, though its initial consumer use will likely be for the server market, as the Xeon CPU is today. Note that the Xeon is starting to find its way into music computers, as it is considerably more powerful than what we are used to. Apparently the world's top 500 supercomputers are Xeon based, yet that technology is also available to the likes of you and I. So don't be misled into thinking that Knights Ferry isn't coming our way one day soon.

Wouldn't it be nice to be prepared for its arrival?

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Re: Something for the Ableton development team to think about.

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:37 pm

I'm sure the people at Ableton know more about future uP releases than either of us. btw what's your background with computers? Moody stated his.
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Jarvisimon
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Re: Something for the Ableton development team to think about.

Post by Jarvisimon » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:05 pm

Tone Deft wrote:I'm sure the people at Ableton know more about future uP releases than either of us. btw what's your background with computers? Moody stated his.
I use computers. I'm not a programmer.

Do you think it necessary that I should be an industry person in order to make a serious thread regarding the synchronicity between the time new hardware appears on the market and when the software for it is developed?

I wouldn't agree that Ableton or any other music app developers are looking so far ahead with any serious intention. Infact, i'd say it's more likely that they weren't.

It's not until a sizeable proportion of the users start noticing things do the software companies take any notice.
Last edited by Jarvisimon on Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tone Deft
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Re: Something for the Ableton development team to think about.

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:08 pm

Jarvisimon wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:I'm sure the people at Ableton know more about future uP releases than either of us. btw what's your background with computers? Moody stated his.
I use computers. I'm not a programmer.

Do you think it necessary that I should be an industry person in order to make a serious thread regarding the synchronicity between the time new hardware appears on the market and when the software for it is developed?
no but I can spot hubris when I see it.

WORLDWIDE forum, think about it.
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At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
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Jarvisimon
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Re: Something for the Ableton development team to think about.

Post by Jarvisimon » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:15 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
Jarvisimon wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:I'm sure the people at Ableton know more about future uP releases than either of us. btw what's your background with computers? Moody stated his.
I use computers. I'm not a programmer.

Do you think it necessary that I should be an industry person in order to make a serious thread regarding the synchronicity between the time new hardware appears on the market and when the software for it is developed?
no but I can spot hubris when I see it.

WORLDWIDE forum, think about it.
I've titled this thread "Something for the Ableton development team to think about". If you can spot hubris, you've better eyesight than me.

There's certainly no arrogance in the title, neither is there any intended in my posts, merely a willingness to encourage developers to adopt change at a faster rate than we are accustomed to.

If nobody is offering the future, nobody will know it's there.

Should someone take a daring step forward, we'd all be praising them for their courage, then all the other developers would take similar steps.

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