How to get really good at Music/Art

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
gjm
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Re: How to get really good at Music/Art

Post by gjm » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:59 am

pencilrocket wrote:True. But in classical snobbery world, as you described, you are not allowed to make mistake. All needed are skill and perfection in real time playing. If you don't have them, you are judged the man who has no ability in 'music' (not player), even if this judging method is NOT scientific.
Rubbish.
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gjm
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Re: How to get really good at Music/Art

Post by gjm » Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:22 am

Machinesworking wrote: Plenty of great classical musicians who cannot write, not even simple compositions.
I missed this before. If you are referring to a 'classical musician' as one who has taken the time to do an exam course that uses historical compositions ie, early, classical or romantic periods, and modern music composed in the style of, then they will easily be able to reference several scales and apply some compositional techniques, at least in the style they are familiar with, and produce something, even if it is at a super basic level (equivalent to 1st couple of grades). Of course, if you have a different meaning for a 'classical musician' that is 'great,' please clarify.

Just to let you know, its common practice for exam systems to allow candidates to perform their own compositions as a part of their recital work right from the very first grade. I use the Trinity Guildhall / Trinity College London syllabus for teaching classical guitar, and performing your own work is accepted through all grades as long as it meets certain requirements. This is actually a great opportunity to work with students in a creative way. It is of course very easy for some and quite a bit harder for others, but never the less, once you begin to get a grip on some of the basics of the musical language, scale and mode construction, dynamics etc, it is very easy to talk about the process of creativity. This has been my experience with my students anyway. :)
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pencilrocket
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Re: How to get really good at Music/Art

Post by pencilrocket » Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:31 am

gjm wrote:
pencilrocket wrote:True. But in classical snobbery world, as you described, you are not allowed to make mistake. All needed are skill and perfection in real time playing. If you don't have them, you are judged the man who has no ability in 'music' (not player), even if this judging method is NOT scientific.
Rubbish.
I knew. Classical music still stands out even though there is full of snobbery rubbish in its world. Not to mention, I can't find any rubbish in its pure artistic side.
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Machinesworking
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Re: How to get really good at Music/Art

Post by Machinesworking » Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:53 am

@GJM no, sorry I should have more context for that statement. I have a friend who does "music therapy" (I'm not kidding! :lol: ), and a big part of it is getting classical concert musicians to learn how to improvise. I was saying there's extremes in every way, in terms of what we think of as a musician. Tone Defts fireside jams would be torture for these people, and these are the best of the best at playing their instrument in terms of technical skill.
I didn't mean the composers, and people trained in composition etc.

gjm
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Re: How to get really good at Music/Art

Post by gjm » Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:28 am

Machinesworking wrote:@GJM no, sorry I should have more context for that statement. I have a friend who does "music therapy" (I'm not kidding! :lol: ), and a big part of it is getting classical concert musicians to learn how to improvise. I was saying there's extremes in every way, in terms of what we think of as a musician. Tone Defts fireside jams would be torture for these people, and these are the best of the best at playing their instrument in terms of technical skill.
I didn't mean the composers, and people trained in composition etc.
I wonder what instrument these classical concert musicians play, would be interesting to know, I mean are the Oboe players or pianists and what ages they maybe and where they were taught? Anyway, another feature of of the Trinity College exam system is Improvisation. Its not not an in depth exploration by any means, the type that may be associated with a jazz guitarist, but its definitely encouraged and is an exam option. It means that teachers have to think of how to broach the subject with students and introduce them to the concepts. Honestly, its not chosen very often and its actually a very hard subject to work with students (mine are mainly children and teenagers) who live lives of routine and regularity. Encouraging musical spontaneity can be a chore! I try on a regular basis to get students to jam scales over scale tone chords using SW like garageband, just to introduce improve and illustrate the relevance of their 'technical' training. Biggest excuse for not doing it is lack of time. :(
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3dot...
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Re: How to get really good at Music/Art

Post by 3dot... » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:06 pm

pencilrocket wrote:True. But in classical snobbery world, as you described, you are not allowed to make mistake. All needed are skill and perfection in real time playing. If you don't have them, you are judged the man who has no ability in 'music' (not player), even if this judging method is NOT scientific.
although there is snobbery involved..
that's simply not true..
in symphonic music..
the soloist is allowed (some) freedom interpreting the piece..
the conductor too...
(the rest of the orchestra are supposed to be accurate for obvious reasons)

but it makes sense you think about it...
if it's notated that you'd play as close to the source ..no computers then... only people..

after all..
you wouldn't want live to re-interpret your midi parts.. unless specifically entering 'randomization'
we get worked up around here about 2ms of phasing..
if we didn't ask for it

symphonic music is a relic of past mentality..
certainly not in tune with todays' "individualism"

that said...
a classical instrument player...
is a much more mentally equipped musician than a knob/mouse twiddlier out of high school...

todays' musician is in need of a lot more technical support..
and be "a jack of all trades"...(mostly master of none)
when I do sound-checks today..
it's not rare for the backup singer or player to ask me to boost a certain frequency ("gimme some 4K !")
fuck that...
stfu and do your job..SING !

:evil:
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acidpenguin
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Re: How to get really good at Music/Art

Post by acidpenguin » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:24 pm

Machinesworking wrote:Not what I said. I said Eugenics is the "science" of trying to determine a genetic component to intelligence, and we all know where that went last time mankind went there, sterilizations, and genocide. So yes I am saying you're proposing a viewpoint that the fascists held, that simply cannot be denied.

No, the scientific study of genetics in relation to intelligence is not Eugenics, you have your logic all mixed up. It's also utterly disingenuous to say that because I believe intelligence may in part be linked to genetics that I share fascist beliefs. Where have I espoused the idea of racial profiling, exactly? Where have I suggested that people who carry genes for certain diseases, or the disabled should be euthanised?
There is great amounts of evidence that genetics plays a role in susceptibility to disease, muscle development, all kinds of things like that, but there has never been any real evidence that any strain of mankind is particularly gifted. In fact that's one thing that Eugenics more or less set out to prove, then pretty much disproved. :lol:

Where has this obsession with ethnicity and race come from in the context of this discussion? 'lol'? Really? Again.. where have I supported the use of genetic science to racially profile or prove the superiority of any given ethnic or social group? You're being utterly condescending and glib.
Your talking about and espousing science that hasn't proven anything that its tried to yet, but it has been used by racists and monsters.
Again, there is mountains of evidence that nurture is vastly important to the development of intellectual and creative people, and literally nothing of substance to prove a genetic component in regular healthy babies. Here's the clincher though, there is absolutely no way to separate nature from nurture to get any meaningful results favoring nature, but it's obvious that nurture plays a role. I do not think it's even close to being a luddite to point out the simple fact that these studies have very little real ground to stand on. They can't even do basic studies on a test group, because nurture can be very different in the same family unit and forcing a baby from a healthy high functioning family into a horrible life to prove this is beyond sick.

Once again, misrepresenting me. I have not espoused eugenics. The non-scientific rubbish used by extremists at the turn of the last century is not the same thing as the scientific research being done into genetics today, stop pretending it is. The reason that there is a mountain of evidence to support the importance of nurture (which I have never denied) is because the study of nurture is age old. Genetic science is in its infancy, to claim it will never give results based on such a small time period is facile, the importance of our genetic nature is only slowly becoming clear to us. Once again (how many times?) it is THE COMBINATION of nature and nurture and how they interact and relate to each other that is interesting. And it is utterly Luddite to claim that such research is dangerous and should not be carried out for fear that 'bad people will do bad things'.
I worked with the developmentally disabled as well, and you should know that they simply do not have the same rights as you or me. I'm very happy there's no euthanasia lobby for sure, but they aren't allowed the kind of freedom we have. Maybe the mildly mentally handicapped, but the more handicapped the more caged. You know that. Yes it's more or less the right thing to do, but to a large degree I think the severely handicapped are housed and taken care of because we don't want to end up monsters, again.
That's a pretty dark point of view, although it may well be culturally based if you are in the USA, I can't claim to know how the disabled are treated there although it's pretty obvious the sick are treated like shit if they have no money. I like to think the severely disabled are looked after (to a degree) by the state because we live in an advanced, somewhat enlightened, modern society where we value people as individuals.
Again, having a problem with pseudo science like trying to separate nature from nurture isn't burying your head in the sand, ignoring history in favor of your own wishes and desires for a utopian future is. :wink:
Again, you're making stuff up. How is the type of genetic research I mentioned (have you even looked at it?) pseudo-science? You're trying to equate what I said to the early 20th century ideas on eugenics again, lame (and boring now). Nobody is trying to separate nature and nurture especially not those I mentioned in my previous post, you'd know that if you'd bothered to look at it instead of going off on massive tirades about eugenics, racial profiling and the evils of extremism. Nowhere am I ignoring history or believing in utopias, stop being so damn condescending.
The question I have for you and all those who give nature a role in genius etc. is why you think it's an important area to study? or even has relevance. Knowing what we do about nurture and the absolute inability for science to separate out that component, even slightly, why are we still attached to the idea that we can isolate the smart gene?
It's important for a lot of reasons, not least because, right now, we don't know. You can claim all the surety you like that genetics is of no importance to intelligence but you're not basing that on anything other than faith. A better understanding of how our brains work could lead to massive benefits both medically and in the field of education and learning. Putting the stoppers on research because you are afraid of possible consequences that are entirely hypothetical is extremely short sighted. Instead of that, perhaps be more concerned with the social and legal mechanisms that exist in order to protect the rights of the individual, that would be far more logical.

acidpenguin
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Re: How to get really good at Music/Art

Post by acidpenguin » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:27 pm

pencilrocket wrote:I knew. Classical music still stands out even though there is full of snobbery rubbish in its world. Not to mention, I can't find any rubbish in its pure artistic side.
It's pretty funny seeing you post about snobbery given your rants here and on other forums about the use of sample packs etc and various producers being worthless 'noobs' because they don't do things in a way which you deem correct.

3dot...
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Re: How to get really good at Music/Art

Post by 3dot... » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:43 pm

how did this turn into a nature vs. nurture ?

as said before..
nurture builds a "2nd nature"...
(and in nurture I mostly include "education"..
it's a broad term... and highly controversial..
not all people would want their children educated in the same way...
and thank GOD for that...)
that nature may be passed on naturally ...

you eat food to live and grow..
you need mental food to grow your mind..

the 2 systems obviously have an bidirectional relation...
it's been proven that a mental state affects a persons' physical state...
and vice-versa
(after all ..all your physical "tools" are hooked up to your brain)

I talk about dualism because it's out there... almost everywhere you look..

a person is born with a certain potential.. to a certain situation
"life" leads him in certain paths...different experiences.. etc.
we do not live in a sterile lab... and we are certainly not "symmetric"...
and so even 2 identical twins which are nurtured in the same environment ..
will turn out completely different "personalities" !

and I personally know of people that "transcended" their situations..
even at a much later age..

go figure..
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3dot...
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Re: How to get really good at Music/Art

Post by 3dot... » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:56 pm

acidpenguin wrote:
3dot... wrote:soul = mind
mind != brain
That's dualism which really doesn't have any evidence to support it and leads on to religion, not gonna go there.
why not ?
acidpenguin wrote:
funny thing about humans is... they can work against their own nature if they WANT!
That's an area of some debate :wink: .
it's not.. there's "evidence to support it" (and has nothing to do with religion?)
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acidpenguin
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Re: How to get really good at Music/Art

Post by acidpenguin » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:07 pm

3dot... wrote:the 2 systems obviously have an bidirectional relation...
it's been proven that a mental state affects a persons' physical state...
and vice-versa
(after all ..all your physical "tools" are hooked up to your brain)

I talk about dualism because it's out there... almost everywhere you look..
Sure, dualism is 'out there', I agree. Nature and nurture is a dualistic system if you like. When I said there's no evidence for dualism I meant the idea that the mind, or 'self', is separate from the brain. Our brains are, after all, one of our physical tools not distinct from them. I think it's reasonable to ask whether that physical tool is affected by similar physical things to the rest of our bodies.
why not ?
If you mean why am I not going to get onto religion, well, I've basically been called a fascist for suggesting that genetics is interesting and plays a part in who we are (mentally).. hate to think what a discussion of religion would result in. 8O
it's not.. there's "evidence to support it" (and has nothing to do with religion?)
Well, free will (and whether it actually exists or not) is still a mater of plenty of debate among philosophers (religious and secular) and scientists alike. It goes into all sorts of areas including genetics and quantum physics. Sure, people can transcend 'situations' such as addiction but that's perhaps a slightly different matter (an addict is always an addict even if they stop using, for example). But again, not sure it's worth opening a whole new tin of worms.
Last edited by acidpenguin on Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

3dot...
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Re: How to get really good at Music/Art

Post by 3dot... » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:14 pm

acidpenguin wrote: Sure, dualism is 'out there', I agree. Nature and nurture is a dualistic system if you like. When I said there's no evidence for dualism I meant the idea that the mind, or 'self', is separate from the brain.
the brain is an organ..
(which will be fully understood probably when pigs fly sideways imo btw)
the 'self' is contained within...
the knowledge of 'self' is obviously a separate part to 'self'..

there's an un-passable border between what a person KNOWS..
and what a person WANTS !

the latter usually causes you to act.... (do what you want)
but "naturally" you can CHOOSE to act by the former... (knowledge)
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3dot...
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Re: How to get really good at Music/Art

Post by 3dot... » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:22 pm

and of course..
this is the summation of the human tragedy..

1 person wants something...
the other person wants an opposing thing...

there's almost no way to get past that !
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3dot...
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Re: How to get really good at Music/Art

Post by 3dot... » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:00 pm

acidpenguin wrote:
3dot... wrote:the 2 systems obviously have an bidirectional relation...
it's been proven that a mental state affects a persons' physical state...
and vice-versa
(after all ..all your physical "tools" are hooked up to your brain)

I talk about dualism because it's out there... almost everywhere you look..
Sure, dualism is 'out there', I agree. Nature and nurture is a dualistic system if you like. When I said there's no evidence for dualism I meant the idea that the mind, or 'self', is separate from the brain. Our brains are, after all, one of our physical tools not distinct from them. I think it's reasonable to ask whether that physical tool is affected by similar physical things to the rest of our bodies.
why not ?
If you mean why am I not going to get onto religion, well, I've basically been called a fascist for suggesting that genetics is interesting and plays a part in who we are (mentally).. hate to think what a discussion of religion would result in. 8O
it's not.. there's "evidence to support it" (and has nothing to do with religion?)
Well, free will (and whether it actually exists or not) is still a mater of plenty of debate among philosophers (religious and secular) and scientists alike. It goes into all sorts of areas including genetics and quantum physics. Sure, people can transcend 'situations' such as addiction but that's perhaps a slightly different matter (an addict is always an addict even if they stop using, for example). But again, not sure it's worth opening a whole new tin of worms.
..yes..an addict is a great example of someone acquired a "2nd nature"...
(it has also been proven that "addictions" are a heritable trait as well)
a recovered addict has to have the mental strength in any given moment to go against his 'self'ish wants..

so does a kid with a guitar practicing..
while all his buddies are outside playing soccer and having fun..
you need to believe in something...
to have that mental state..
whether it's religion.. science or pure egoism..(some use FEAR)

when you're at a very young age.. your natural disposition is selfish..
(you are on the receiving end after all..)
and so kids are given chores...
and educated on the concept of prize and reward...
(which also governs mankind concept of "justice" ..
same justice..that humans try and inject their values to a (immoral) natural world..
these concepts are pre-religion btw)
that is superficial means to help them not be seduced by their physical wants..
that also turn to "2nd nature" with time..
(after that comes "life" with all it's experiences and conflicts)

in any case ... at some point in time..
the person has grown up and is free to make decisions of their own..
.. and can dig a bit deeper..
and understand that we almost always have CHOICE...
it's just that in some situations you have much less of it..

to get back to the point ..
you're gonna have to REALLY WANT IT !
in one way or the other..
to make achievements and transcend...
maybe that's what people call borderline-obsessive..
Last edited by 3dot... on Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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crumhorn
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Re: How to get really good at Music/Art

Post by crumhorn » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:14 pm

I like how this thread is full of good practical advice...










.................................................................... NOT!!!
"The banjo is the perfect instrument for the antisocial."

(Allow me to plug my guitar scale visualiser thingy - www.fretlearner.com)

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