How to get really good at Music/Art

[3dot...]

Thinking of all the blues players that got absolutely nothing for inventing a genre that inspired so many for instance.

Yeah but if they had been drinking scotch and eating caviar then it wouldn't have been the blues, right?

You kinda have to end up dying in a ditch to be a respected bluesman.

yep.. I'm pretty sure crossroads and ditches are a must...

[acidpenguin]

is anybody seriously saying you can get really good at music/art without practice?

Or that unless you are born with inbuilt genius you might as well not bother?

Few people can achieve real greatness in any pursuit, but that doesn't mean there is nothing for the rest of us to contribute.

At least the 10000 hours practice theory gives some room for hope.

Don't think anybody is suggesting that, certainly not me. I was just contesting the notion that anybody can become great with 10k hours practice (as you say, all it does is give you a chance) or that genius does not exist and we all hold the same potential, to me the evidence suggests otherwise.. some people are just better.

Yeah but if they had been drinking scotch and eating caviar then it wouldn't have been the blues, right?

There's always women...

[Tone Deft]

to contrast to the above I can say that over the years I've met a handful of people that loved to TALK about playing guitar but after I loaned them a guitar or they bought one the talk slowly diminished over time and the practice NEVER happened. "it's too hard" "I think I'm left handed so I need another guitar" "I don't have time" "I forgot."

then there's the "when I buy such and such piece of gear I'll be gigging all the time."

excuses are for a-holes.

[stringtapper]

then there's the "when I get Live 9 my music won't suck."

excuses are for a-holes.

+1

[acidpenguin]

to contrast to the above I can say that over the years I've met a handful of people that loved to TALK about playing guitar but after I loaned them a guitar or they bought one the talk slowly diminished over time and the practice NEVER happened. "it's too hard" "I think I'm left handed so I need another guitar" "I don't have time" "I forgot."

then there's the "when I buy such and such piece of gear I'll be gigging all the time."

excuses are for a-holes.

Not sure what you are 'contrasting to' (if you meant my post), if it's 'some people are better' then you've misinterpreted what I wrote. I sang in a very very good cathedral choir as a kid, we spent countless hours drilling scales, arpeggios and generally practising the techniques of singing before we even got onto the actual music we were performing. When I started djing many moons ago I would spend 4-8 hours a day on the decks and went through plenty of times where I though 'shit, I suck still'.. only way through that is to work harder. No illusions or excuses here .

What I'm saying is 'all things being equal, some folks are better than others at any given activity'.

[Tone Deft]

looking at it from the angle of people I've seen that fail. there's been talk of how people have become successful at music, I tried to show how I've seen people fail at music. all talk, no walk.

[gjm]

What I'm saying is 'all things being equal, some folks are better than others at any given activity'.

I would say that there is nothing that can be equal. You may find two individuals who actually put in 10k hours practice time, but there are so many other determining factors that control how much mastery over your chosen instrument your obtain, greatness or legendary status aside. Playing an instrument is a massive multitasking operation which challenges motor skills, listening skills, counting skills and comprehension skills. The abilities or inabilities of the body and mind through developmental stages shows up very easily how disadvantaged some people are over others. Yes, through massive effort you can make some gains over your personal limitations, but it is all within the context of your personal make up. The way you are 'wired' has built in limits. Some people are 'wired' in a way that they can very easily access, control and nurture their development, not only in music but in many areas of their lives. Others simply cannot.

[simmerdown]

...sound like you just made that all up to fit what you already think

brains are incredible malleable, and if you treat your 'lesser' students like they will always be 'lesser" you will be doing them a huge, lifelong disservice

[gjm]

...sound like you just made that all up to fit what you already think

brains are incredible malleable, and if you treat your 'lesser' students like they will always be 'lesser" you will be doing them a huge, lifelong disservice

I do not treat anybody in a 'lesser' way. I just don't treat them the same. First job is to assess weakness and strengths. The autistic kid with a photographic memory and poor motor skills for his developmental stage has to be treated and guided differently to the kid who struggles to remember more than 2 steps in a sequence when shown either visually or aurally. Then there are the ones who believe they can and the ones who believe they can't, and the ones who have parents that care and parents that don't.

[simmerdown]

seems to me the best way is to treat them all as if they have the potential to be friggn amazing, bc they do...never know if that gifted student is gonna get into video games and drop it, or the apparently less 'apt' is going to become a social oucast and find refuge in practicing....never know...

not a music teacher, but i homeschooled my kids 8 years...i could see how its possible for minds/abilities to change...to be bolstered or crushed, most of which had to do with how they were treated and what they believed (were led to believe) they could do...

offtopic now but, anyway

[H20nly]

then there's the "when Live is 64 bit my music won't suck."

excuses are for a-holes.

+1

uh huh.

[Tone Deft]

ye-ouch!

[gjm]

seems to me the best way is to treat them all as if they have the potential to be friggn amazing, bc they do...never know if that gifted student is gonna get into video games and drop it, or the apparently less 'apt' is going to become a socail oucast and find refuge in practicing....never know...

not a music teacher, but i homeschooled my kids 8 years...i could see how its possible for minds/abilities to change...to be bolstered or crushed, most of which had to do with how they were treated and what they believed (were led to believe) they could do...

offtopic now but, anyway

Yes. Thats exactly my overall view of each student.

Back on topic though, the OP suggested that the discovery of process through persistence leads to success. Always, the students I see that do the best, ie make progress in a consistent and cumulative manner are the ones who realize that they are in charge of their learning. Self determination = results.

[Tone Deft]

I think it was 60 minutes that ran a story on Khan Academy.
http://www.khanacademy.org/

this guy makes a web page to help his niece in school. he adds more pages, random people find the pages and LOVE his writeups.

he says screw it, quits his job and goes full time on this, all non-profit. eventually gets a grant from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. it goes worldwide, FREE SCHOOL.

in the classroom what happens is the teacher lets the students go through the exercises on their own at their own speed. there's analysis software to rate how each kid is doing, which ones need help, which ones don't. the teacher can also pull up the screen of any student to see what they're up to.

not every kid is taught the same, the result is that the bottom kids aren't left behind and the top kids aren't bored out of their minds and losing potential.

edit - this might be the interview
http://www.khanacademy.org/talks-and-in ... an-academy

[acidpenguin]

What I'm saying is 'all things being equal, some folks are better than others at any given activity'.

I would say that there is nothing that can be equal. You may find two individuals who actually put in 10k hours practice time, but there are so many other determining factors that control how much mastery over your chosen instrument your obtain, greatness or legendary status aside. Playing an instrument is a massive multitasking operation which challenges motor skills, listening skills, counting skills and comprehension skills. The abilities or inabilities of the body and mind through developmental stages shows up very easily how disadvantaged some people are over others. Yes, through massive effort you can make some gains over your personal limitations, but it is all within the context of your personal make up. The way you are 'wired' has built in limits. Some people are 'wired' in a way that they can very easily access, control and nurture their development, not only in music but in many areas of their lives. Others simply cannot.

Yeah, fair enough, I was too lazy to add a massive bracket containing all the things that can't reasonably be controlled to be roughly equal . And that's kind of what I'm trying to get at (badly), all those little things.. the fine motor control, eye hand coordination and undefinable processes of the brain that make some people better than others at the very top level add up to what can perhaps be called 'genius'.

...sound like you just made that all up to fit what you already think

brains are incredible malleable, and if you treat your 'lesser' students like they will always be 'lesser" you will be doing them a huge, lifelong disservice

That's pretty harsh tbh and bordering on trollish. I don't see anything in gym's posts where he says that he treats certain students as 'lesser'. He's simply pointing out that people learn at different rates and DO have different potentials.. that doesn't follow on to mean that he tells a kid who learns slower that they are shit and should not bother trying.. you're putting words in his mouth so to speak.