Why does Battery sound better than simpler or sam for kicks?

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B3
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Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:25 am

Why does Battery sound better than simpler or sam for kicks?

Post by B3 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:44 pm

As a test, I loaded up Battery with a basic kick, clap, and hat and dropped in a basic 4x4 midi pattern. I routed battery outputs to individual audio tracks to simplify using effects on each sound.

Next, I loaded up a drum rack and dropped in the same basic kick, clap, and hat along with the midi. Drum rack, of course, automatically loads a Simpler for each sound dropped in.

Finally, I made sure basic stuff like volume and ADSR values between Battery and the Simplers in the drum rack were the same.

When I listened to each setup there was a clear difference in the kick. Battery simply sounds better, with the kick being more full and present. I don't notice much difference with clap and hat, but the difference between the kick in Simpler and the kick in Battery was pretty big.

Next I converted the Simpler with the kick to a Sampler, and did the test again. The kick sounds better in the Sampler that it did in the Simpler, but it still doesn't sound as good as the kick in Battery.

For so many reasons, such as file management, I'd prefer to use drum racks with simplers and or samplers over Native Instruments Battery, but the sound difference is pretty clear.

Anyone else discover something similar? Any thoughts? Anything I could be doing that would cause the disparity in sound quality between Battery and Simpler/Sampler?
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3dot...
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Re: Why does Battery sound better than simpler or sam for kicks?

Post by 3dot... » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:54 pm

did you check to see that no fx or compressor is enabled in battery..
also when you a/b ..make sure the volume are the same..
Image

B3
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Re: Why does Battery sound better than simpler or sam for kicks?

Post by B3 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:19 pm

3dot... wrote:did you check to see that no fx or compressor is enabled in battery..
also when you a/b ..make sure the volume are the same..
Thanks for the reply. I did check all parameters. I tried my best to be very thorough.
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Dragonbreath
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Re: Why does Battery sound better than simpler or sam for kicks?

Post by Dragonbreath » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:21 pm

Probaly the default settings in simpler... the volume is lowered by default so you dont overload the track with mulitple samples playing trough the drum rack. brinb it to 0db and im pretty sure that would do it..


Its easy to put a sample in simpler and the ask yourself why it doesnt sound as good.
everyone does it when they start with ableton.
I beleive its one of the main reason some people other daws sound better...

janiq
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Re: Why does Battery sound better than simpler or sam for kicks?

Post by janiq » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:26 pm

when you load sample into simpler first check volume ADSR. this is due to the fact the when you open instance of live's simpler it comes with preloaded parameters which in my opinion change sample dynamic drastically. try to play around with them and it will sound the same.

B3
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Re: Why does Battery sound better than simpler or sam for kicks?

Post by B3 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:34 pm

Did you actually read my post? I addressed volume and ADSR.
iMac 27", 24 GB RAM, 3.4 GHz Intel Core i7
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B3
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Re: Why does Battery sound better than simpler or sam for kicks?

Post by B3 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:48 am

@scutheotaku thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Retrigger is on in Sampler, but switching it off does not change the sound. Also remember, I'm converting Simpler to Sampler and getting a marginally better sound (or at least believe I am). Battery happens to sound the best, but Sampler sounds better than Simpler to me.

I did carefully check sample start and end to make sure they weren't causing the issue. In addition, neither pitch nor velocity appear to be the issue.

I can believe your assertion that perhaps Battery has some built-in, non-configurable "sheen" processing. Maybe so. And at the end of the day, it simply sounds better to me.

However, going through your post and subsequently checking settings, I did find that even though Battery has Volume Envelope values specified for AHDSR, the Volume Envelope is off by default. With Simpler and Sampler the Volume Envelope ADSR cannot be turned off. Quite frankly this is a rather annoying feature of Ableton. A Sampler should load up letting the sample come through fully by default and not require adjustment to allow that.

So, final analysis, it was in fact the Volume Envelope causing the majority of the sound difference for the kick. Battery still sounds better to me, but the margin is much narrower now. Sorry to those who posted before suggesting it might be the Volume Envelope. Next time I'll check the "on" button in Battery.

By default there is no Volume Envelope applied in Battery. In Ableton Live, Drum Rack loads with Simpler with an always on Volume Envelope with "your kick is gonna sound like shit" values already dialed in for you.
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willdahbe
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Re: Why does Battery sound better than simpler or sam for kicks?

Post by willdahbe » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:37 am

You can set up it so samples load into drumracks with a user setting. i.e. envelops opened all the way up. I know it's not an exact answer, but it will help from always having to turn up decay, sustain, release in sampler or simpler.

B3
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Re: Why does Battery sound better than simpler or sam for kicks?

Post by B3 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:25 am

willdahbe wrote:You can set up it so samples load into drumracks with a user setting. i.e. envelops opened all the way up. I know it's not an exact answer, but it will help from always having to turn up decay, sustain, release in sampler or simpler.
Oh, this sounds pretty excellent. Thanks for chiming in! How do you go about this?
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willdahbe
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Re: Why does Battery sound better than simpler or sam for kicks?

Post by willdahbe » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:36 am

B3 wrote:
willdahbe wrote:You can set up it so samples load into drumracks with a user setting. i.e. envelops opened all the way up. I know it's not an exact answer, but it will help from always having to turn up decay, sustain, release in sampler or simpler.
Oh, this sounds pretty excellent. Thanks for chiming in! How do you go about this?
- Put a drum rack on a channel, then drop a simpler or sampler on one of the cells, depending on which one you like to host your drums with.
- Adjust parameters of simpler/sampler for how you like the settings to be when a sample is dropped on a drumrack cell
- Then right click on the simpler/sampler title Device title bar that you just edited and click on "Save as default preset"

And thats it.

dazzer
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Re: Why does Battery sound better than simpler or sam for kicks?

Post by dazzer » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:05 am

At risk of being asked "did you actually read my post"...

Most of the problems folks have with hits in simpler is that auto fade is turned on by default and needs to be turned off (how/where to turn it off depends on your version of Live).

I use Simpler for all my drum programming and, not surprisingly, samples i use sound the same both inside and outside of it.

1.A.M.
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Re: Why does Battery sound better than simpler or sam for kicks?

Post by 1.A.M. » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:45 am

are you using same midi clip, velocities are the same? try to max out the velocities in live...

steffensen
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Re: Why does Battery sound better than simpler or sam for kicks?

Post by steffensen » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:58 am

You do realize that Simpler wont play the audio in HQ mode tho?
Its the same as importing audio in the arrangw with the HQ box ticked off. Sampler on the other hand, have HQ options, so try that and it should sound the same.

agent314
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Re: Why does Battery sound better than simpler or sam for kicks?

Post by agent314 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:47 pm

In Ableton Live, Drum Rack loads with Simpler with an always on Volume Envelope with "your kick is gonna sound like shit" values already dialed in for you.
This made me laugh out loud

B3
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Re: Why does Battery sound better than simpler or sam for kicks?

Post by B3 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:39 pm

steffensen wrote:You do realize that Simpler wont play the audio in HQ mode tho?
Its the same as importing audio in the arrangw with the HQ box ticked off. Sampler on the other hand, have HQ options, so try that and it should sound the same.
I did not realize that. That could explain why I thought Sampler sounded better than Simpler. Thanks for that insight!
iMac 27", 24 GB RAM, 3.4 GHz Intel Core i7
Mac OSX 10.9
Ableton Live 9.1.4 + Push
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