Logic Pro 9 for $199. Futher pressure to lower prices?

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The Landwhale
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Re: Logic Pro 9 for $199. Futher pressure to lower prices?

Post by The Landwhale » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:31 pm

djadonis206 wrote:In Live you can hot swap audio clips. Can you do this is Logic?

For example, I can drag and drop an audio loop into Live's arrange window. I then cut the one loop up into several pieces. In each new piece I can drag some other new sound into the clip window at the bottom of the screen. The result is a nice collage of cut up sounds.

I'm under the impression this is not possible with Logic
I don't think this is possible with Logic, but I don't have time to check and verify until later today. Pretty sure you can't though. Anyone else can verify for him?

milfhuntr
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Re: Logic Pro 9 for $199. Futher pressure to lower prices?

Post by milfhuntr » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:38 pm

I think that Ableton has slowly taken Logic's market share but price WAS a factor, at least when I bought. A friend of mine has been looking at my Ableton for a few weeks and has not bought. I know he will def get Logic. He already knows Garage Band so he will be on familiar turf.

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Re: Logic Pro 9 for $199. Futher pressure to lower prices?

Post by garyboozy » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:50 pm

just read this...
Create Digital Music wrote:Most importantly, $30 now gets you all of the instruments and effects from Logic in MainStage, including instruments like Sculpture...
...All those instruments and effects: You also get, bundled into the package, an extensive collection of everything from guitar amps and stompboxes to the Ultrabeat drum machine to virtual instruments from analog to the unique physical-modeling Sculpture. Because MainStage supports ReWire, that means if you, say, love Ableton Live or Cubase more than Logic, but longed for some of those Apple instruments, you can now play with them in your DAW for thirty bucks without having to buy the whole Logic package. You’d just route audio straight into your DAW.
i didnt realise Main Stage had all the synths. that's all i ever really liked Logic for.

*YOINK*
Last edited by garyboozy on Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The Landwhale
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Re: Logic Pro 9 for $199. Futher pressure to lower prices?

Post by The Landwhale » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:52 pm

milfhuntr wrote:I think that Ableton has slowly taken Logic's market share but price WAS a factor, at least when I bought. A friend of mine has been looking at my Ableton for a few weeks and has not bought. I know he will def get Logic. He already knows Garage Band so he will be on familiar turf.
I think Mainstage at $30 with all the instruments and content that's included is the bigger problem for Ableton, unfortunately. Particularly if Apple releases a version of Mainstage for iOS.

I really can't wait to see what Ableton does next. Ill echo what ive been saying for a few years now, I want Live running on iOS and OS X in a similar ecosystem/workflow as GarageBand for iOS and Logic for OS X. Maybe for the Windows folks there could be an android/windows equivalent as well. (Must. Resist. Urge. To laugh)

Machinesworking
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Re: Logic Pro 9 for $199. Futher pressure to lower prices?

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:40 pm

djadonis206 wrote:In Live you can hot swap audio clips. Can you do this is Logic?

For example, I can drag and drop an audio loop into Live's arrange window. I then cut the one loop up into several pieces. In each new piece I can drag some other new sound into the clip window at the bottom of the screen. The result is a nice collage of cut up sounds.

I'm under the impression this is not possible with Logic
You can do something similar, basically all you're doing is constraining and audio file to a predetermined length by doing this.
Here's an example of something Logic has that live doesn't that's about as basic and IMO essential as it gets, Strip Silence.

Machinesworking
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Re: Logic Pro 9 for $199. Futher pressure to lower prices?

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:06 pm

glitchrock-buddha wrote:\The fact that it is AU only and no VST bothers me. VST is much more useful for sending midi data between tracks. Logic, while having good audio editing, is also lacking many features of other newcomers like Reaper and Studio One that are quite impressive, like the ability to easily freeze/render regions and then go back to midi any time after editing etc.
AU only is standard for 99% of the OSX only applications out there, and there's a reason for that. Emagic/Logic was on board to drop VST long before Apple suggested AU. VST is a standard developed by Steinberg and for years it was awful on Macs. When AU came out it was far more advanced than VST, plus I'm not sure, but it seems you're unaware that it's Live, Logic etc. that are dropping the ball in terms of updating their AU hosting to accommodate MIDI routing between audio units. I do think AU needs an update for sure, it should be more robust feature wise than VST by default IMO, but DAW manufacturers need to stop being lazy about this. The one thing MAS (DPs plug in format) had over AU was more than 16 MIDI tracks for a multi instrument like Kontact, if VSTi's can address more than 16 MIDI tracks in a single instance then that's a reasonable request.
Another thing, though I've the ability to route MIDI to other tracks with VSTs and AIC, I rarely do, it's a great feature that in my workflow at least I hardly ever use. Geist would greatly benefit from this feature for instance.

Reaper and Studio One are lacking in features as well. Since you named two of the newest DAWs on the market it's not surprising that they implemented freeze etc. in a good way, better than Logic or Live.

Logic has IMO by far the best key command implementation of any DAW, though Apple broke some of it with contextual menus and other Apple UI lock step decisions it still shines as the fastest DAW in terms of key commands, screen sets, and lean CPU use. One thing that strikes me as off is that Logic Studio had Sountrack Pro and Waveburner and from what I can tell both are dropped with no replacement on the horizon.

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Re: Logic Pro 9 for $199. Futher pressure to lower prices?

Post by glitchrock-buddha » Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:26 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
glitchrock-buddha wrote:\The fact that it is AU only and no VST bothers me. VST is much more useful for sending midi data between tracks. Logic, while having good audio editing, is also lacking many features of other newcomers like Reaper and Studio One that are quite impressive, like the ability to easily freeze/render regions and then go back to midi any time after editing etc.
AU only is standard for 99% of the OSX only applications out there, and there's a reason for that. Emagic/Logic was on board to drop VST long before Apple suggested AU. VST is a standard developed by Steinberg and for years it was awful on Macs. When AU came out it was far more advanced than VST, plus I'm not sure, but it seems you're unaware that it's Live, Logic etc. that are dropping the ball in terms of updating their AU hosting to accommodate MIDI routing between audio units. I do think AU needs an update for sure, it should be more robust feature wise than VST by default IMO, but DAW manufacturers need to stop being lazy about this. The one thing MAS (DPs plug in format) had over AU was more than 16 MIDI tracks for a multi instrument like Kontact, if VSTi's can address more than 16 MIDI tracks in a single instance then that's a reasonable request.
Another thing, though I've the ability to route MIDI to other tracks with VSTs and AIC, I rarely do, it's a great feature that in my workflow at least I hardly ever use. Geist would greatly benefit from this feature for instance.

Reaper and Studio One are lacking in features as well. Since you named two of the newest DAWs on the market it's not surprising that they implemented freeze etc. in a good way, better than Logic or Live.

Logic has IMO by far the best key command implementation of any DAW, though Apple broke some of it with contextual menus and other Apple UI lock step decisions it still shines as the fastest DAW in terms of key commands, screen sets, and lean CPU use.
Regardless of whether it's the fault of DAWs rather than the AU spec is kind of beside the point though. Logic only allows AUs and if it doesn't make full use of AUs, then it's still pretty annoying and limiting. The simple fact is that with any other DAW I can route the midi of one plug-in to another midi track. And you know my issues with automapped AUs I think. I also think that cross-platform preset formats are better.

As for newer DAWs missing things, yeah but they're moving quickly. Logic is still built upon an old design. Great key commands etc. but those are pretty good in these newer ones too. I do love that lean cpu use and I love the idea of using a product made by the same people who make the hardware, but I'm not sure it cuts it anymore in comparison to other DAWs. But in the end of the day, it's down to preference what feels right and no feature set can really change that.
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Re: Logic Pro 9 for $199. Futher pressure to lower prices?

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:18 pm

glitchrock-buddha wrote: Regardless of whether it's the fault of DAWs rather than the AU spec is kind of beside the point though. Logic only allows AUs and if it doesn't make full use of AUs, then it's still pretty annoying and limiting. The simple fact is that with any other DAW I can route the midi of one plug-in to another midi track.
Logic in my guess has issues with it because Logic has a very unique MIDI implementation, otherwise why would Apple not implement something in Logic they put in the AU spec? Live and DP on the other hand are being lazy about it. The fact is VSTs on Macs got a bad reputation for a reason. Now it's been a while but, one thing that AU has over VST is preset handling, with AU's that do not have their own preset management built in like Zebra you can import any AU preset from Logic to Live to DP. With VSTs if I recall they tend to not work as expected if made by the host. Plus the single AU for stereo, mono and surround, which requires three VST's etc.

And you know my issues with automapped AUs
Well there's no way to know whether that's a Novation issue or an AU issue.
Novation aren't going anywhere so I'm not sure what the issue is anyway?
Automap is even better lately IMO.
I think. I also think that cross-platform preset formats are better.
I'm not that big of a fan of cross platform code in general, being that OSX is the minority player in that game, it often gets the short end.
but I'm not sure it cuts it anymore in comparison to other DAWs. But in the end of the day, it's down to preference what feels right and no feature set can really change that.
True, but Logic is by no means in threat by other DAWs, it's basically second place in the market to Pro Tools in terms of people considering it the standard. I think all of us who use Live and Cubase, DP etc. understand that it's maybe an underserved reputation at this point, but it's not going away any time soon. One thing that Live has is that people buy it who own Logic etc. great place to be market wise, makes me wonder about the logic of them competing in the "DAW" market because new users who haven't used other DAWs want all the features of Logic etc.

lapieuvre
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Re: Logic Pro 9 for $199. Futher pressure to lower prices?

Post by lapieuvre » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:03 pm

Take it back, Apple is really good about that kind of stuff and will likely refund you.

For those that are curious, all the content from before is still included for free, it's available to download via an in app menu now is all.
Apple said no... Bought it at a music store, not at apple store
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Re: Logic Pro 9 for $199. Futher pressure to lower prices?

Post by glitchrock-buddha » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:10 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
And you know my issues with automapped AUs
Well there's no way to know whether that's a Novation issue or an AU issue.
Novation aren't going anywhere so I'm not sure what the issue is anyway?
Automap is even better lately IMO.
The issue is that you become reliant on an extra layer in between the host and plug-in, so you don't depend on just the host and plug-in, but also on automap software working correctly, in order to use the plug-ins on any project where you have loaded those plug-ins already. For example if automap becomes buggy with a certain plug-in or update, you can remove the automap verison and use the plug-in normally where it's already been loaded with an AU. With VSTs you are never in danger of being stuch with it. Remove autoamp altogether if you want. All VSTs load normally with correct settings in your track. AUs see them as totally different plug-ins and can't find them if you un-wrap them. Not only that, but with VSTs, any plug-in you've ever loaded in any project will automatically load the automap version with settings intact as soon as you wrap it. This is nice to get the fully usability for old tracks as well. AUs of course load the non-automap versions after it's been loaded. This has other effects as well such as with presets. You can load presets normally with automap VSTs. You can't load an AU preset into an automapped AU. Or for example I get a Kore template from someone for a VST. When I use, I can use the automap functionality, Get an AU Kore template/preset, and you're stuck with the regular AU one. In short, there is absolutely no barriers or caveats with automap VSTs. Using automap AUs breaks so many things.
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Re: Logic Pro 9 for $199. Futher pressure to lower prices?

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:52 pm

glitchrock-buddha wrote:. Using automap AUs breaks so many things.
Again, there's no way of knowing whether that's Novation or Apples fault.
Most likely emails to Novation would have you believing it's Apples fault and Apple would do the same...
I've never noticed an AU not loading a preset because it was the wrapped version.
I have noticed that presets made by AU host DAWs work in any AU host, which isn't the case with VSTs.
Mostly, I just haven't felt the need to keep up two standards in most cases, if host supports AU I use it by default causing much less hassle when switching to Logic or DP.
That coupled with 99% of the plug ins out there having their own built in preset handling has made this all a non issue as long as you save the presets you make in your plug in, which believe me you really want to do. OS9 to OSX and OSX PPC to OSX Intel for instance broke a lot of songs with plug ins being upgraded instead of updated, NI etc. broke songs left and right if you didn't have saved presets that you could bounce into the upgraded version of Absynth etc. I'm curious now though, I'll run some tests, but I can't recall having any preset issues between AU and Automap AU? The AU preset format would load in either, though again, you may have to save your preset in order to do this. In fact saving your presets eliminates the need to worry about whether you use the VST or AU version in most cases.

Basically you make your choices, you use VST, you're stuck with Reaper, Cubase, or Live on OSX.
Logic is hugely more CPU friendly than any of those, and quite honestly AU's at least will 99% of the time not even load into Logic or DP if a buggy version is put out.
That can't be said for Cubase or any VST host. Unfortunately Ableton have never bothered with an AU check. Live is an exceptionally good VST host though, compared to Energy XT, Reaper, Cubase even, you're going to see far less problems than you would in those DAWs.

I made my choice, I own three hosts that support AU only, AudioFinder, Logic and DP, only one that's VST only, ReNoise. Honestly the only AU I have that's an issue right now is Kore, surprise surprise. :evil: Funny, now that Mainstage is $29 I might get v2 to use as a replacement for Kore, though AIC and Soundflower is far less elegant than Kore hosting as an AU or VST. :x

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Re: Logic Pro 9 for $199. Futher pressure to lower prices?

Post by dylandigits » Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:02 am

garyboozy wrote:
i didnt realise Main Stage had all the synths. that's all i ever really liked Logic for.

*YOINK*
Me too-- I kept Logic installed long after I decided the workflow wasn't for me just because I dug the instruments. I finally sold it when I grew tired of using Soundflower to route the audio to Live and not being able to control the MIDI for the Logic/MS instruments via rewire. Still, at $30 I might just bite the bullet and get it, deal with Soundflower, and count on my somewhat dodgy keyboard chops to play without any possibility of cleaning up the MIDI after the fact. There's always warping the resulting audio to get it tighter, I suppose...

[addendum] bit the bullet. *shrug*

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Re: Logic Pro 9 for $199. Futher pressure to lower prices?

Post by glitchrock-buddha » Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:56 am

Machinesworking wrote: Again, there's no way of knowing whether that's Novation or Apples fault.
Most likely emails to Novation would have you believing it's Apples fault and Apple would do the same...
I've never noticed an AU not loading a preset because it was the wrapped version.
I have noticed that presets made by AU host DAWs work in any AU host, which isn't the case with VSTs.
Mostly, I just haven't felt the need to keep up two standards in most cases, if host supports AU I use it by default causing much less hassle when switching to Logic or DP.
That coupled with 99% of the plug ins out there having their own built in preset handling has made this all a non issue as long as you save the presets you make in your plug in, which believe me you really want to do. OS9 to OSX and OSX PPC to OSX Intel for instance broke a lot of songs with plug ins being upgraded instead of updated, NI etc. broke songs left and right if you didn't have saved presets that you could bounce into the upgraded version of Absynth etc. I'm curious now though, I'll run some tests, but I can't recall having any preset issues between AU and Automap AU? The AU preset format would load in either, though again, you may have to save your preset in order to do this. In fact saving your presets eliminates the need to worry about whether you use the VST or AU version in most cases.
I always use the plug-ins' internal presets. Or fxp for VSTs. Either is fine. And I don't believe it's a Logic or automap issue with regards to AUs. I believe it is the way AUs are built. The problems with automap are down to the aupreset format and the fact that many au plug-ins can be stored in a single AU .component file. Because of this, all the au automap components get stored in a single .component file (same reason you have the different output versions in a single file). When one automap wrapped version is taken away, it can't associate the regular AU like it can with VSTs, which each reference their own .vst file. So unfortunately the single mergable file type just can't work in this case I don't think. But you could be right, it could be something Novation could, in theory, address. As for the AU presets though, that's something they can't help for sure. An automap plug-in is essentially a new plug-in in the eyes of the host. You can't load aupresets through the host and use the automap version if it was made with the original. You might be able to import them into automap version, but like you say, using the plug-ins own preset format is much more hassle-free. But that's less important to me than the fact that you can't use it on already loaded audio units in older projects and can't use it if the automap server is ever not present. I'm sure there will be other alternatives for hardware mapping (currently there is nothing remotely close), so I don't want to be locked in. VSTs allow me to not be locked in to it.
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Re: Logic Pro 9 for $199. Futher pressure to lower prices?

Post by Machinesworking » Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:01 am

garyboozy wrote:just read this...
Create Digital Music wrote:Most importantly, $30 now gets you all of the instruments and effects from Logic in MainStage, including instruments like Sculpture...
...All those instruments and effects: You also get, bundled into the package, an extensive collection of everything from guitar amps and stompboxes to the Ultrabeat drum machine to virtual instruments from analog to the unique physical-modeling Sculpture. Because MainStage supports ReWire, that means if you, say, love Ableton Live or Cubase more than Logic, but longed for some of those Apple instruments, you can now play with them in your DAW for thirty bucks without having to buy the whole Logic package. You’d just route audio straight into your DAW.
i didnt realise Main Stage had all the synths. that's all i ever really liked Logic for.

*YOINK*
Is this confirmed? Has anybody who doesn't own a previous version of Logic Pro 7 or 8 confirmed this?
If you get Sculpture, Ultrabeat and the ESX24mkII + all the other goodies from Logic then $29 is a total steal. I would hazard a guess that Logic 7, 8 or 9 installed is a requirement, but if I'm wrong then that's a hell of a deal. One caveat though, Mainstage can only act as a ReWire Master, So any third party instruments you used in a Live Set would have to be hosted in Mainstage in rewire operation. Not a deal killer for new songs, not any different than before for older songs you want to use Mainstage with. (IE you're better off using AIC and Soundflower etc.)
What would be truly awesome is if they made Mainstage able to be used as an Audio Unit inside Live etc. then for me anyway it would replace Kore. 8)

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Re: Logic Pro 9 for $199. Futher pressure to lower prices?

Post by Machinesworking » Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:09 am

glitchrock-buddha wrote:
I always use the plug-ins' internal presets. Or fxp for VSTs. Either is fine. And I don't believe it's a Logic or automap issue with regards to AUs. I believe it is the way AUs are built. The problems with automap are down to the aupreset format and the fact that many au plug-ins can be stored in a single AU .component file. Because of this, all the au automap components get stored in a single .component file (same reason you have the different output versions in a single file). When one automap wrapped version is taken away, it can't associate the regular AU like it can with VSTs, which each reference their own .vst file. So unfortunately the single mergable file type just can't work in this case I don't think. But you could be right, it could be something Novation could, in theory, address. As for the AU presets though, that's something they can't help for sure. An automap plug-in is essentially a new plug-in in the eyes of the host. You can't load aupresets through the host and use the automap version if it was made with the original. You might be able to import them into automap version, but like you say, using the plug-ins own preset format is much more hassle-free. But that's less important to me than the fact that you can't use it on already loaded audio units in older projects and can't use it if the automap server is ever not present. I'm sure there will be other alternatives for hardware mapping (currently there is nothing remotely close), so I don't want to be locked in. VSTs allow me to not be locked in to it.
Let me get back to you on this, I've never noticed an issue with AU automap and regular AU's as far as presets are concerned. The only issue I've ever had this way was with Kore and Buffer OverRide because Buffer OverRide doesn't have it's own preset format, and Kore would not read host written versions of .fxp or .au
I've never seen Automap be buggy for a certain automapped AU VS the non automapped version, so I've never had to go back to the regular AU. Plus, although I have issues with Novation, I love their keyboards, so I'm not switching anytime within the next fiver years. :)

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